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Lucreau

Fall and shooting from knees

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Couldn’t find much on it, and wasn’t mad it was a local match. But went into a corner and fell, finger off the trigger, muzzle safe direction etc etc but ended up shooting at 3 targets from my knees. RO called procedural on all 6 shots bc my feet were out of the shooting box although my knees were inside the box. What’s the reg? 

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Couldn’t find much on it, and wasn’t mad it was a local match. But went into a corner and fell, finger off the trigger, muzzle safe direction etc etc but ended up shooting at 3 targets from my knees. RO called procedural on all 6 shots bc my feet were out of the shooting box although my knees were inside the box. What’s the reg? 
unfortunately, feet inside fault lines

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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11 minutes ago, Lucreau said:

Couldn’t find much on it, and wasn’t mad it was a local match. But went into a corner and fell, finger off the trigger, muzzle safe direction etc etc but ended up shooting at 3 targets from my knees. RO called procedural on all 6 shots bc my feet were out of the shooting box although my knees were inside the box. What’s the reg? 

Sounds like the RO made the right call, all parts of your body must be within the "shooting area" (inside the fault lines). 

 

Rule 10.2.1 spells it out pretty clearly: A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or platform surface outside a shooting area, or while stepping on or gaining support from an object wholly beyond a shooting area, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

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The only remaining question I would have as the RO is whether or not you gained a "significant advantage" and deserve a penalty per shot, or if you should only receive 1 penalty for the overall occurrence.  

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And that was the second question that day, is none of the shots were taken to give an advantage, with 6 penalties, but again just a local match so wasn’t going to get upset about it. Good learning moment 

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1 hour ago, JohnStewart said:

The only remaining question I would have as the RO is whether or not you gained a "significant advantage" and deserve a penalty per shot, or if you should only receive 1 penalty for the overall occurrence.  

 

I’d have probably only given you 1 since your fall and the time it likely took to steady yourself and get the shots from your knees would have made a pretty good time add on. But, I wasn’t there. So....

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Just remember significant advantage has a definition in the new rule book that includes the most common examples.

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25 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

Just remember significant advantage has a definition in the new rule book that includes the most common examples.

I’ll take a look now

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26 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

I’d have probably only given you 1 since your fall and the time it likely took to steady yourself and get the shots from your knees would have made a pretty good time add on. But, I wasn’t there. So....

Would’ve been nice lol and the time it took to bandage my knee. Gotta love falling on sharp brass

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2 hours ago, Lucreau said:

And that was the second question that day, is none of the shots were taken to give an advantage, with 6 penalties, but again just a local match so wasn’t going to get upset about it. Good learning moment 

 

Unfortunately, if both feet are out, it’s automatically per shot under 10.2.1.2. 

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10 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Unfortunately, if both feet are out, it’s automatically per shot under 10.2.1.2. 

Yep. Easy call that any competent RO should make.

10.2.1.2 
A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantage and will be given one penalty for each shot fired until presence is re-established in a shooting area. Having at least one foot in a shooting area and nothing touching outside the shooting area is required to re-establish presence in a shooting area.

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You're going to say he was completely out of the shooting area even though both knees were on the ground inside the shooting area?

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7 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

You're going to say he was completely out of the shooting area even though both knees were on the ground inside the shooting area?

Yeah that’s the gray area I was questioning. At that point my knees essentially became my base or my feet. Just good info to know if it happens again especially at a bigger match

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27 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yep. Easy call that any competent RO should make.

10.2.1.2 
A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantage and will be given one penalty for each shot fired until presence is re-established in a shooting area. Having at least one foot in a shooting area and nothing touching outside the shooting area is required to re-establish presence in a shooting area.

Yeah guess you can’t argue with written standards. At the end of the day both feet were indeed out of the shooting area. Had I just lifted them up. I didn’t even realize they were out

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I would not call penalties for something like that. Your knees are taking the place of your feet at that point. It's not like you're leaning over or anything to gain any sort of an advantage. 

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3 minutes ago, Matt1911 said:

I would not call penalties for something like that. Your knees are taking the place of your feet at that point. It's not like you're leaning over or anything to gain any sort of an advantage. 

You don't have a choice if it's a sanctioned USPSA match. The rules say feet, not knees. Same with going Prone. If both feet are out it's gonna hurt.

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The rule also says completely out. With both knees on the ground inside the shooting area he is not completely out.

 

He never left the shooting area so he doesn't need to reestablish presence in the shooting area.

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12 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

The rule also says completely out. With both knees on the ground inside the shooting area he is not completely out.

 

He never left the shooting area so he doesn't need to reestablish presence in the shooting area.

Come on now. Don’t selectively edit the rule.

10.2.1.2
A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) 

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25 minutes ago, Sarge said:

You don't have a choice if it's a sanctioned USPSA match. The rules say feet, not knees. Same with going Prone. If both feet are out it's gonna hurt.

Good to know about the prone too, didn’t think of that 

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It's not selectively editing. The rule is quoted in this thread. In addition to the parenthetical that you seem enamored with it says the shooter needs to be completely out of the shooting area. 

 

Are you going to convince a RM that he was completely out simply because his feet were out while the rest of his body was in? Good luck with that.

 

I think the correct call is one procedural based on 10.2.1.

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10 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

It's not selectively editing. The rule is quoted in this thread. In addition to the parenthetical that you seem enamored with it says the shooter needs to be completely out of the shooting area. 

 

Are you going to convince a RM that he was completely out simply because his feet were out while the rest of his body was in? Good luck with that.

 

I think the correct call is one procedural based on 10.2.1.

This was my biggest argument that day. Was it justified to have 6 penalties vs one procedural for the event

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Just seemed like a gray area with the rules written completely out of the shooting area. But it does state feet. We need a rule change to say feet/knees lol

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45 minutes ago, Sarge said:

You don't have a choice if it's a sanctioned USPSA match. The rules say feet, not knees. Same with going Prone. If both feet are out it's gonna hurt.

 

For a local match, no way I'd call that. 

Theres no Ferrari for the winner, and that's just some B.S. to throw on someone after they fell and tried to recover. The fall is penalty enough. 

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2 minutes ago, Matt1911 said:

 

For a local match, no way I'd call that. 

Theres no Ferrari for the winner, and that's just some B.S. to throw on someone after they fell and tried to recover. The fall is penalty enough. 

Not enforcing rules locally is one of the biggest failures in the sport. When a shooter goes to a major he is in for a rude awakening if we let things slide locally

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