Dot Oscillation on Recoil - Mark IV 22/45 Lite

[RickT]

Ruger Mark IV 22/45 Lite sans comp.  While we've turned the corner on securing the Allchin adapter to the Ruger barrel shroud, the behavior of the dot during recoil remains a mystery.  I'm used to heavy, low PF 9mm 1911s.  Even with low recoil the sights can be seen to rise slightly and recover on target.  The dot on my wife's lightweight Ruger actually oscillates up and down.  Happens on the backup gun as well.  The amplitude of the oscillation decreases with a stronger grip, but it's still present and really a bit of a challenge for very rapid target transitions.  Anyone else observe this and, if so, any solution other than a heavier Mark IV version (C-More Railway BTW)?

[zzt]

Can't understand the problem.  I shot a friend's Mark III 22.45 Lite with a comp.  The dot literally did not move.  Another friend just tricked out a new Mark 4 22/25.  I haven't shot it yet, but when I RO him the muzzle does not climb.  I think you should just put a comp on it and see what happens.

[Frozen]

Yes it jumps , I change my set up from a Ruger lite to this Frankenstein pistol I now have more weight in the hands and I am able to shoot cci standards 100% no recoil felt and my times are faster in steel challenge

[Matt1911]

Ruger Mkiii 22/45 "tactical" with volquartsen comp, *thumb rest [generic]* and Vortex Venom gets me mid 8 second runs on smoke and hope. I'm just a lowly B class shooter. 

That extra weight on the barrel helps a lot. 

[RickT]

The only thing I regular shoot with a dot is a 9mm PCC which weighs a ton.  What surprised me was not that the dot jumped on the Ruger.  It doesn't jump much, but it oscillates up and down which in annoying beyond belief.  Just for grins I'll put an optic on my 22 1911 conversion and see what that looks like.  We have a comp for the gun, but during some sight in with and without the comp I believe the comp does degrade accuracy, more than I'd even want for steel challenge; the comp in question was clean.

[Frozen]

The only thing I regular shoot with a dot is a 9mm PCC which weighs a ton.  What surprised me was not that the dot jumped on the Ruger.  It doesn't jump much, but it oscillates up and down which in annoying beyond belief.  Just for grins I'll put an optic on my 22 1911 conversion and see what that looks like.  We have a comp for the gun, but during some sight in with and without the comp I believe the comp does degrade accuracy, more than I'd even want for steel challenge; the comp in question was clean.

I agree with the comp degraded accuracy , i took mine off [emoji15], I no longer shoot cci mini mags in my pistol, the cci standard velocity is very accurate in my mark iii with no comp


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[Frozen]

The only thing I regular shoot with a dot is a 9mm PCC which weighs a ton.  What surprised me was not that the dot jumped on the Ruger.  It doesn't jump much, but it oscillates up and down which in annoying beyond belief.  Just for grins I'll put an optic on my 22 1911 conversion and see what that looks like.  We have a comp for the gun, but during some sight in with and without the comp I believe the comp does degrade accuracy, more than I'd even want for steel challenge; the comp in question was clean.

I agree with the comp degraded accuracy , i took mine off [emoji15], I no longer shoot cci mini mags in my pistol, the cci standard velocity is very accurate in my mark iii with no comp


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[edyan]

I made a couple of video's (too large to post) of an Allchin Comp and a Volquartsen single port comp... both cause the muzzle to dip about 1/4 to1/2 inch upon firing instead of rising up... then the muzzle  bounces back up a little more than where it started when using mini-mags

[zzt]

Rugers have a heavy bolt.  When it slams to the rear it causes the muzzle to rise.  Exactly the same thing happens with a Buckmark.  You need a comp to counteract that.  That being said, you have to match the ammo to the comp.  I find CCI AR Tactical at 1200fps to be ideal.  Something like Eley Force (42gr @ 1250fps) is too hot.

 

If your comp degrades accuracy, try another. It may have been bored off center and bullets are striking it.  I have comps from CWA, MaddMax Tactical and Tandemcross.  None of them degrade accuracy at all.

 

A 22 conversion on a 1911 will work fine, but there are caveats.  If the entire slide reciprocates, you'll have no problems if you use the right recoil spring.  Conversions like the Marvel Precision and the Nelson are designed so that only a very light portion of the slide reciprocates.  Since that portion is so light, action is super fast and violent.  You have to be certain to match your ammo to the recoil spring.  Otherwise you batter the slide and the gun.  With an 8 lb. spring you can safely use 1200fps ammo.  With the standard 7 you are stuck with standard velocity.  Marvel Precision now sells 9 and 10 lb. springs if you want to try hotter ammo.

Edited September 11, 2019 by zzt

[Hammer002]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 5:49 PM, RickT said:

Ruger Mark IV 22/45 Lite sans comp.  While we've turned the corner on securing the Allchin adapter to the Ruger barrel shroud, the behavior of the dot during recoil remains a mystery.  I'm used to heavy, low PF 9mm 1911s.  Even with low recoil the sights can be seen to rise slightly and recover on target.  The dot on my wife's lightweight Ruger actually oscillates up and down.  Happens on the backup gun as well.  The amplitude of the oscillation decreases with a stronger grip, but it's still present and really a bit of a challenge for very rapid target transitions.  Anyone else observe this and, if so, any solution other than a heavier Mark IV version (C-More Railway BTW)?

 

12 hours ago, RickT said:

The only thing I regular shoot with a dot is a 9mm PCC which weighs a ton.  What surprised me was not that the dot jumped on the Ruger.  It doesn't jump much, but it oscillates up and down which in annoying beyond belief.  Just for grins I'll put an optic on my 22 1911 conversion and see what that looks like.  We have a comp for the gun, but during some sight in with and without the comp I believe the comp does degrade accuracy, more than I'd even want for steel challenge; the comp in question was clean.

 

Ok, gonna kinda lay this out for you, as best I can.  I'm gonna shoot you straight and not put the kid gloves on and waste your time.  So, the things I say are going to be straight forward and direct, not meaning to belittle or be mean, just honest.  Text is so hard to properly convey tone and attitude.  The attempt is to be helpful, but direct.

 

First, for credential purpose, I am a GM in RFPO in Steel Challenge in addition to RFRO and PCCO.  Not said to boast, but for experience level reference.

Ben DeHaemers A19646

 

First, to reciprocate a few things in your post:  "Only shot a dot on PCC / Used to 9mm 1911 / decreases with stronger grip / challenge for rapid target transitions / comp degrades accuracy even for steel challenge."  These were the main things I caught needing addressed.

 

The easiest to address, unless a comp is filled with carbon and actually touching the projectile as it passes, no comp is going to change accuracy unless we are talking about rifles shooting hundreds of yards, which has to do with far different things than we are going to discuss here.  I can only image your tests have been freestanding or at best arms resting on a bench.  Its you.  Or something is wrong with the gun or ammunition.  Again, I don't know how you conducted your testing nor how far, but I don't have to, to know its something having to do with you or the gun.  99 percent sure its technique even though you think you are doing the same thing either way.

 

Next, your admitted experience level with the topic at hand, shooting with a red dot AND shooting a Ruger Lite,  is nonexistent and you are comparing to previous experience with completely different platforms of a far heavier variety and far different caliber, but I think you realize that.  You have to realize it IS the weight of the Ruger that is one of the differences.  ADDING WEIGHT IS NOT THE ANSWER.  I think we already talked about this, if not find my recent post about it.  Learning to shoot the gun is.  At high speed, those of us used to shooting dots on pistols are accustom to what we call "shooting a squiggly line instead of a round dot" most of the time.  Rapid sight acquisition comes from practice.  Not chasing an impossibility of lowering recoil.  The only way to change recoil instead of YOU is to shoot a heavier gun that absorbs the recoil, however this makes steel challenge transitions far more difficult. and basically undermines anything you would want for Steel Challenge.

 

Grip - no matter what gun you are shooting in steel challenge, 1911 pistol, rimfire pistol, even any rifle, your grip should be as tight as absolutely possible ALL THE TIME.  I can imagine this is part of accuracy differences for you as well.  All guns will shoot flatter with a strong grip.  All guns will shoot more accurately with a strong grip.  A weaker grip will have the opposite effect and change function of some guns.  I understand from previous posts you are of the older variety, do the best you can to grip as tight as absolutely possible.

 

Frankly, you post a lot of issues.  Most are overthinking or brand new shooter issues.  Practice.  Practice with your chosen gun  Especially a new gun to you.  You are not missing because of a comp.  You missed because you broke a bad shot.  You allowed the gun to move during trigger engagement.  In Steel Challenge our most difficult shot is 18 yards to a 10 inch plate.  It's made difficult only with the introduction of speed.  Otherwise, even the worst of guns should be pegging the plate with no issue.  The same CANNOT be said for the worst of shooters.  Practice with the gun.  Practice will answer most of your questions.

 

Last, maybe the bulk of your question as you worded it, yes, the Ruger 22/45 is going to have more recoil movement when just considering the gun itself.  Its light. (LITE).  The lighter the pistol the more it will move if not properly stabilized by the grip.  Even with a stable grip, the gun will move more than one twice as heavy.

 

First time red dot shooters all notice the same thing - while holding the gun the dot will show you every single move you make.  Every tremble, every jerk, every uneven trigger pull.  Its all normal and part of the process.

 

I would be remiss if I didn't mention one more thing.  Start to look inward for progress.  So many of you posts seem to complain or blame things keeping you from performing.  Outer limits box construction, ground type, RO interaction, gun issues, etc.  I understand asking around for outside influence, but reading your posts seems to me as though you are distracted from personal improvement by so many things thought to be negatively affecting you.  That's the game.  If you want to be a competitor, or even just compete, there are things you are going to have to accept and deal with.  Too much recoil?  Look into your grip.  Adding weight IS NOT the answer (again).  Missing?  Its not because of a comp.  A challenge to perform very rapid transitions?  Learn to transition - are you sure you are moving your eyes in front of the gun to the next target during recoil?  I'm betting not if you are seeing the sights "oscillate" during recoil.  I'm betting you are still looking at the dot instead of the next target during recoil.  I'm betting you are looking at the dot instead of looking at the target being shot and allowing the dot to superimpose itself on the target.  The fact alone that you see the dot moving during recoil and discussing transitions being challenging means you could spend some time actually learning to transition.

 

I give it to you this way to be direct.  Try not to imply a tone anything other than helpful to my words.  They are meant to be no nonsense for the purpose of realization, if it can be had.  I wish you the very best of luck out there and hope to run into you on the path.  If you like, look me up on Facebook.  I am an established GM, undefeated for quite some time locally, even placed my name above some of the best at some majors this season.  Again, I don't say it out of arrogance, I try to be quite humble.  I try to give a little credibility to my posts.  On Facebook I have established a Steel Challenge club for the local area I am the match director for.  I have also started blog writing intended for beginner to expert shooters after so many here asking for coaching.  I am a scholastic team coach as well.  Look me up, I would love to help in any way I can.  Either way, wish you the best. 

[dmshozer1]

On 9/11/2019 at 11:53 AM, Hammer002 said:

 

 

Ok, gonna kinda lay this out for you, as best I can.  I'm gonna shoot you straight and not put the kid gloves on and waste your time.  So, the things I say are going to be straight forward and direct, not meaning to belittle or be mean, just honest.  Text is so hard to properly convey tone and attitude.  The attempt is to be helpful, but direct.

 

First, for credential purpose, I am a GM in RFPO in Steel Challenge in addition to RFRO and PCCO.  Not said to boast, but for experience level reference.

Ben DeHaemers A19646

 

First, to reciprocate a few things in your post:  "Only shot a dot on PCC / Used to 9mm 1911 / decreases with stronger grip / challenge for rapid target transitions / comp degrades accuracy even for steel challenge."  These were the main things I caught needing addressed.

 

The easiest to address, unless a comp is filled with carbon and actually touching the projectile as it passes, no comp is going to change accuracy unless we are talking about rifles shooting hundreds of yards, which has to do with far different things than we are going to discuss here.  I can only image your tests have been freestanding or at best arms resting on a bench.  Its you.  Or something is wrong with the gun or ammunition.  Again, I don't know how you conducted your testing nor how far, but I don't have to, to know its something having to do with you or the gun.  99 percent sure its technique even though you think you are doing the same thing either way.

 

Next, your admitted experience level with the topic at hand, shooting with a red dot AND shooting a Ruger Lite,  is nonexistent and you are comparing to previous experience with completely different platforms of a far heavier variety and far different caliber, but I think you realize that.  You have to realize it IS the weight of the Ruger that is one of the differences.  ADDING WEIGHT IS NOT THE ANSWER.  I think we already talked about this, if not find my recent post about it.  Learning to shoot the gun is.  At high speed, those of us used to shooting dots on pistols are accustom to what we call "shooting a squiggly line instead of a round dot" most of the time.  Rapid sight acquisition comes from practice.  Not chasing an impossibility of lowering recoil.  The only way to change recoil instead of YOU is to shoot a heavier gun that absorbs the recoil, however this makes steel challenge transitions far more difficult. and basically undermines anything you would want for Steel Challenge.

 

Grip - no matter what gun you are shooting in steel challenge, 1911 pistol, rimfire pistol, even any rifle, your grip should be as tight as absolutely possible ALL THE TIME.  I can imagine this is part of accuracy differences for you as well.  All guns will shoot flatter with a strong grip.  All guns will shoot more accurately with a strong grip.  A weaker grip will have the opposite effect and change function of some guns.  I understand from previous posts you are of the older variety, do the best you can to grip as tight as absolutely possible.

 

Frankly, you post a lot of issues.  Most are overthinking or brand new shooter issues.  Practice.  Practice with your chosen gun  Especially a new gun to you.  You are not missing because of a comp.  You missed because you broke a bad shot.  You allowed the gun to move during trigger engagement.  In Steel Challenge our most difficult shot is 18 yards to a 10 inch plate.  It's made difficult only with the introduction of speed.  Otherwise, even the worst of guns should be pegging the plate with no issue.  The same CANNOT be said for the worst of shooters.  Practice with the gun.  Practice will answer most of your questions.

 

Last, maybe the bulk of your question as you worded it, yes, the Ruger 22/45 is going to have more recoil movement when just considering the gun itself.  Its light. (LITE).  The lighter the pistol the more it will move if not properly stabilized by the grip.  Even with a stable grip, the gun will move more than one twice as heavy.

 

First time red dot shooters all notice the same thing - while holding the gun the dot will show you every single move you make.  Every tremble, every jerk, every uneven trigger pull.  Its all normal and part of the process.

 

I would be remiss if I didn't mention one more thing.  Start to look inward for progress.  So many of you posts seem to complain or blame things keeping you from performing.  Outer limits box construction, ground type, RO interaction, gun issues, etc.  I understand asking around for outside influence, but reading your posts seems to me as though you are distracted from personal improvement by so many things thought to be negatively affecting you.  That's the game.  If you want to be a competitor, or even just compete, there are things you are going to have to accept and deal with.  Too much recoil?  Look into your grip.  Adding weight IS NOT the answer (again).  Missing?  Its not because of a comp.  A challenge to perform very rapid transitions?  Learn to transition - are you sure you are moving your eyes in front of the gun to the next target during recoil?  I'm betting not if you are seeing the sights "oscillate" during recoil.  I'm betting you are still looking at the dot instead of the next target during recoil.  I'm betting you are looking at the dot instead of looking at the target being shot and allowing the dot to superimpose itself on the target.  The fact alone that you see the dot moving during recoil and discussing transitions being challenging means you could spend some time actually learning to transition.

 

I give it to you this way to be direct.  Try not to imply a tone anything other than helpful to my words.  They are meant to be no nonsense for the purpose of realization, if it can be had.  I wish you the very best of luck out there and hope to run into you on the path.  If you like, look me up on Facebook.  I am an established GM, undefeated for quite some time locally, even placed my name above some of the best at some majors this season.  Again, I don't say it out of arrogance, I try to be quite humble.  I try to give a little credibility to my posts.  On Facebook I have established a Steel Challenge club for the local area I am the match director for.  I have also started blog writing intended for beginner to expert shooters after so many here asking for coaching.  I am a scholastic team coach as well.  Look me up, I would love to help in any way I can.  Either way, wish you the best. 

Great stuff!