Dry Fire Multiple Divisions

[IVC]

Any thoughts or experience on doing systematic dry fire in two divisions at the same time? (I don't mean necessarily in the same session, more about alternating sessions.)

 

My primary division is Limited (used to be Tanfo in L10 due to magazine restrictions in CA, now it's an SVI with standard magazines, allowed by a court ruling in CA; long story). However, I have an Open gun that is the same platform and fits in the exactly the same rig, and I enjoy shooting Revolver and have the full setup for it as of recently (I've had belt/holster/clip holders for a long time, but I have finally started reloading for it and can now control brass/primers/bullets). 

 

I would like to keep shooting Limited and have it as my primary division, but I would also like to shoot some classifiers or matches in Open and/or Revolver. Compared to Limited, Open will mess with the target/sights focus and Revolver will mess with the trigger pull. Is there anyone doing multiple divisions like this and does it affect performance of the primary division? I don't want to mess up my primary training, but wouldn't mind throwing in a less involved secondary training with a secondary gun that I can use from time to time. Note that I'm not talking about similar divisions such as Limited and Single Stack, or completely different platforms such as Limited and PCC, but about divisions with significant differences when it comes to aiming and trigger pull. More of a "Production and Carry Optics at the same time" setup. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

(I am 67% in Limited, working on moving up.) 

[rowdyb]

your goals are contradictory, so you need to reassess them because it it is written now I don't think you've planned anything truly measurable, achievable and with a time component.

 

if your main objective is to not mess up your primary training then do not add anything else in. when you have something you want to do well but it only gets 70% of your focus then you're just hurting yourself.

 

because you propose keeping things same same as possible just accept the skills and such you have now, in the moment, that carry over to the other things you want to do fun.

 

my opinion, not gospel.

[TrackCage]

Of the options you mentioned, I would go limited and open. Aside from the optic, you're fairly similar in terms of gun platform, holster/mag setup, trigger pull...

 

I am a long time Prod shooter and have started dabbling in CO as of 5 months ago. I have shot CO in all my recent matches but still practice occasionally with iron sights on both my Prod gun and CCW gun. I can index iron sights or a dot just like riding a bike after a couple reps. This may depend on your current practice regime and classification. I am an A in both Prod and CO.

 

Yea, maybe it's not the best path to success in CO, but for me specifically it makes sense. All three guns are on the Glock platform so it's fairly transferrable. 

[IVC]

21 hours ago, rowdyb said:

if your main objective is to not mess up your primary training then do not add anything else in. when you have something you want to do well but it only gets 70% of your focus then you're just hurting yourself.

 

Fair point, but let me clarify a bit. I am organizing my daily dry fire routine around a specific amount of time in the morning (half hour). There are two immediate goals: create a habit, and, don't get burned out or overdo it during the habit-building phase. That's my "current 100%" and I wouldn't be taking away or adding to it.

 

If down the road I decide to add training time, it would be for getting ready for a particular higher level match and I would stick to the single division at that time. 

[IVC]

21 hours ago, rowdyb said:

your goals are contradictory, so you need to reassess them because it it is written now I don't think you've planned anything truly measurable, achievable and with a time component.

 

This is an interesting point. 

 

Everything I do in dry fire is "by the book," which means almost all is on timer. I record par times and work on them. I also study my deficiencies in matches and at the range, e.g., indexing accuracy of wider transitions, calling shots, observing sights, etc., which gives me plenty of fine details to work on in dry fire. My initial goal is to work on speeding up the core technique to match difficult par times, while slowly introducing aspects of the game such as movement, entries and exits, etc. The reason is the same as when people work on accuracy initially - one cannot be fast and accurate unless one can be accurate in the first place. It's also how the book is structured, where most of the drills are for speed of manipulation and shooting, and movement is added from time to time. 

 

Are you saying that I should have a specific set time frame for getting to a specific par time? Or, that I should set up goals such as "I expect to make class X in Y amount of time?" I wouldn't mind something like that, I just don't understand the benefit or the meaning of trying to guess how quickly I can learn and improve. It's not that I'm putzing around with the gun, I'm working the best I can on improving my times. 

[IVC]

21 hours ago, TrackCage said:

I can index iron sights or a dot just like riding a bike after a couple reps.

 

That's what I was looking for - the switch is not too complicated once you have the basics in each division, but it's also not something that you just pick up and are immediately where you left it off. It's good to hear that you are the same class in both divisions, which means that the skill does transfer between the two (even if you have to work a bit every time you switch). 

[MikeBurgess]

I believe shooting Open with the dot will in the long run improve your Limited shooting, I found it lets you work on some of the other aspects of the game easier and shooting target focused for me transferred back to my irons guns and I shoot them quicker and as accurately. 

 

shooting a revo for a while teaches you to grip harder all the time because you cant get away with a weak grip and a 6lb DA trigger.  it can also teach you to make all your shots count, you will find many times with a revo where missing is just not a option so learning to see those situations and make the shots on demand is a good thing. 

 

All the above aside, to me avoiding burnout is a big deal, if it is something you are prone to and shooting other stuff and concentrating on the FUN aspect of the sport is probably a good idea. 

[rowdyb]

Normally I am loathe to use the "pros" as a training example as they are in different circumstances than the normal competitor but I think it applies in this case.

 

As I so recently learned, burnout doesn't come from external factors. It isn't the gun or the division. It is you, inside you. Avoiding burnout truly means changing you, not the gun. It isn't the gun, it's  you. (I just bought and sold 4 Glocks in the space of three months chasing burnout away via guns. It's the wrong path. It feels like an easier path but it is wrong.)

 

Secondly, look at Ben. He wants to excel at one thing. He doesn't divide his attention shooting CO or Revo or anything like that. Yes, there are pros who bounce a little but they're not doing what you want to do. They are focused more on "doing" whereas I think you're "learning".

 

-Break-

 

Regarding goal setting. I trust in the SMART format for making goals. Meaning a goal must be S. specific. M. measurable. A. achievable. R. realistic and T. timely. Follow the link to better explain it so you can read it outside of the context of the forum and using shooting definitions for the words.

 

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/other/smart-goal/

 

"I want to shoot LImited better this year" isn't really a full goal. Neither is "I'd like to have more fun at matches." They're statements of intent but they aren't goals. Understand what the letters in smart really mean and then revise you goal a few times and you'll end up with something good. And at the same time probably figure out how to actually achieve it!

[TrackCage]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Secondly, look at Ben. He wants to excel at one thing. He doesn't divide his attention shooting CO or Revo or anything like that.

I'd argue that he is. What's the purpose of him shooting limited? He seems to enjoy the change of pace, although I don't expect to see him switch...

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, TrackCage said:

I'd argue that he is. What's the purpose of him shooting limited? He seems to enjoy the change of pace, although I don't expect to see him switch...

As I said, I hesitated because I know what he's doing now. But as he was ascending he dedicated to one division .

 

Again I  think it matters most what your goal is.

Edited September 6, 2019 by rowdyb

[IVC]

Thanks for the detailed response - I knew about goals and measuring milestones, but not the acronym which is quite handy.

 

Since we are getting into details, my initial mid to long term goal is to reach 85%+ on classifiers. Not any particular performance in the matches, just the classifiers. This is where I am very specific, not because I don't want to do well in matches (I do), but because I want a measurable goal that I can detect when I achieve, and can track the progress along the way analytically via my current classification record. A more immediate goal, a milestone if you wish, is getting to 75%+. The method to get there is to have a systematic practice for getting faster, more consistent and more precise in all skills. That's where the consistent dry fire regimen kicks in. It's no good to do it from time to time or only when it's convenient. It must be organized, repetitive and routine.

 

The burnout I mentioned in a later post is not really about getting burned out on the overall practice - as long as I have a goal and I am not there, the fire is burning within (pardon the pun). What I wanted to prevent is getting to spend too much time initially, before I build the routine, then realize it's interfering with the rest of my life too much and is unsustainable. Instead, I want to have a dedicated amount of time, which I currently do, and make a change in my daily routine so that dry fire is a natural part of it. At the moment, I decided to have my morning coffee become my dry fire time. It's half hour of taking a sip here and there between drills. Instead of wasting time reading news or just relaxing with the coffee, I can do something much more useful and fun. It gets the day going and fits in perfectly. 

 

The real question is what happens when (if) I achieve my initial goal. That's where I'll spend some more time thinking as I (hopefully) get closer to the goal. At the moment, I see two paths: pushing the classifiers to the top class, or concentrating on the sport itself and overall match strategies. Maybe both. It will depend on how hard it is to achieve my current goal and whether I believe I have the aptitude to push it further. 

 

In the meantime, the side divisions are literally just for fun and to see how well the skills from the primary division transfer to the others. It's like taking a two week vacation, relaxing and doing something else. What I want to make sure is that it won't affect or mess up my main training. Seems like the main effect would be the time away from the primary practice, which is not too steep a price. 

[IVC]

Just to add to the previous post about the goal related to classifiers...

 

I'm not looking to shoot a single classifier multiple times until I get a good enough score using point shooting because I'm not precise in transitions, don't see my sights and cannot call shots. I'm also not looking at practicing specific classifier until I can nail it. Instead, I'm looking at building my skills to the point where I can shoot classifiers at a certain level. It's what they call in the books "being fast, not shooting fast." I don't mind if it's initially "paper(ish) class" because it's a stepping stone. Classification system gives me a measurable progress indicator. 

[MikeBurgess]

I think your vacation analogy is a very good one, to do well in other divisions takes a bit of work but taking a break and playing in then wont hurt you other than the time away. Also you will likely be surprised how much of the core skills transcend equipment divisions.

 

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

be surprised how much of the core skills transcend equipment divisions.

Which is one reason why you should just stick with one for 99% of your training. hahahaha. Do familiarity reps and that's it.

[IVC]

Thanks everyone who responded - quite a bit of valuable information and insights.

 

I'll keep my dry fire training in Limited and stick to the routine. If I want to shoot something else from time to time, I'll treat it as the time off, maybe do a few days of division-specific training, but mostly count on the single division, Limited, to be the primary driver of all improvements. To what extent these improvements transfer to any other platform will be the extent of my improvement in those other divisions. 

[Magictalent]

When I shoot very slow, I have no problem switch gun and divisions. Everything will work. Then later I pushed to 1second draw, 1.2 reload, 0.23 split and transition. Still very slow, but everything is by feel now. A very small change in location of the belt will cause feel changes. Switch gun? No way. Even just a taller or skinnier front post will cause the feel change and body react slower.

 

[Joe4d]

My opinion would be to create a season and an off season, based on your area and schedule. Stick to your primary platform till you get to your final big match of year .Whatever that may be,, then declare your Off season go to another platform and shoot it exclusively for a few months and get your classifiers in. Before starting training camp with your primary for next season