praetorian97 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 The whole "If no hands position is outlined in WSB, you default to wrists below belt" is a MYTH correct? Because START POSITION in the WSB per the rule book is REQUIRED or the WSB is incomplete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Cabana Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Correct - there is no longer a default start position, so that must be spelled out in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Under the old rulebook, if not otherwise stated the default start position was facing downrange hands at sides. New rulebook----if hand position is not stated it can be whatever you want, as long as you are not touching the gun or an ammunition holding device (magazine/moonclip). One other change to the 2019 rules---"facing downrange" is now anywhere within the 180. "Facing downrange Not facing uprange. Any position facing side berms or backstop within 90 degrees of the median intercept of the backstop." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Lee Cabana said: Correct - there is no longer a default start position, so that must be spelled out in the WSB. Is that where the confusion is coming from? We use to have a default in the previous versions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 It used to be if no start position was specified then the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides(see appendix E3). That “unless otherwise specified...” wording has been removed from 2018 rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 So the next question is when you are at an L1 and they screwed up, do you put your hands anywhere but touching the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, praetorian97 said: So the next question is when you are at an L1 and they screwed up, do you put your hands anywhere but touching the gun? I usually just default to the hands naturally at side position which you see more lately being written as wrist below belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KellyB Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Interesting tidbit: the “wrists below belt” is not the same as “relaxed at sides”. High waisted pants for the win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 15 minutes ago, praetorian97 said: So the next question is when you are at an L1 and they screwed up, do you put your hands anywhere but touching the gun? That is my understanding. If they don't specify, you can do anything the rules allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 We had a match with unloaded gun on table. WSB stated Wrists below belt. The table was so low your hands hovering were technically below the belt. OR does this mean like underneath your belt and not a horizontal plane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 32 minutes ago, KellyB said: Interesting tidbit: the “wrists below belt” is not the same as “relaxed at sides”. High waisted pants for the win! Yes, naturally relaxed turns into ipsc monkey stance so wrist below belt is easier to enforce. DAA Open division mom jeans on sale now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 30 minutes ago, praetorian97 said: We had a match with unloaded gun on table. WSB stated Wrists below belt. The table was so low your hands hovering were technically below the belt. OR does this mean like underneath your belt and not a horizontal plane? Gamers gonna game Put some tape on table and state hands or palms on Xs next time. Have to spell out start position now or FreEsTyLe rUleS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, HoMiE said: Gamers gonna game Put some tape on table and state hands or palms on Xs next time. Have to spell out start position now or FreEsTyLe rUleS Not gonna lie, I would have never thought of that. Then I saw a fellow competitor do it with RO approval. If the RO is going to let someone do it and it's an advantage, you have to do it or you are openly putting yourself behind. At that point its fair cause the dedicated Stage RO will let all competitors do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 23 minutes ago, HoMiE said: Gamers gonna game Put some tape on table and state hands or palms on Xs next time. Have to spell out start position now or FreEsTyLe rUleS or don't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 34 minutes ago, motosapiens said: or don't worry about it. If you don’t care about winning We had a loaded gun on table stage this weekend as well and WSB only stated gun on X, so of course most of the pcc shooters just out the muzzle on X and we didn’t have to step in as far and back out to retrieve gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 On 9/3/2019 at 8:27 AM, praetorian97 said: So the next question is when you are at an L1 and they screwed up, do you put your hands anywhere but touching the gun? L1 or L27 doesn't matter, doesnt say put them where you want. I get a big kick out of watching people hover right over the holster trying to have a faster draw, funny thing is they don't practice this way and more often than not its slower and they get a bad grip Also on table starts when guys try to game it by hovering they often rush the pickup and jack up their grip and spend more time dealing with that than just taking the time to pick the gun up normally. in my experience if you give shooters rope they are pretty quick to tie a noose around their own necks, so I just try to stick to what I practice and try to avoid tying knots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted September 4, 2019 Author Share Posted September 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: L1 or L27 doesn't matter, doesnt say put them where you want. I get a big kick out of watching people hover right over the holster trying to have a faster draw, funny thing is they don't practice this way and more often than not its slower and they get a bad grip Also on table starts when guys try to game it by hovering they often rush the pickup and jack up their grip and spend more time dealing with that than just taking the time to pick the gun up normally. in my experience if you give shooters rope they are pretty quick to tie a noose around their own necks, so I just try to stick to what I practice and try to avoid tying knots The draw I totally agree with and in fact what I tell people the same thing you said about not practicing it. But with the hovering, one hundo faster if you can hover vs raise your hands and then go to the gun. I know you are a revo shooter so a .20-.50th inst an eternity for you haha. But for us open shooters, that could be a stage win or few spots. Last match I had a .92 makeup shot that wasn't needed that dropped me 3 stage spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, praetorian97 said: The draw I totally agree with and in fact what I tell people the same thing you said about not practicing it. But with the hovering, one hundo faster if you can hover vs raise your hands and then go to the gun. I know you are a revo shooter so a .20-.50th inst an eternity for you haha. But for us open shooters, that could be a stage win or few spots. Last match I had a .92 makeup shot that wasn't needed that dropped me 3 stage spots. I guess my point on table starts is hover or whatever (I like to touch the table with a finger or thumb so I'm not hovering) but then just pick it up like normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIKott Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 On 9/3/2019 at 1:21 PM, HoMiE said: If you don’t care about winning We had a loaded gun on table stage this weekend as well and WSB only stated gun on X, so of course most of the pcc shooters just out the muzzle on X and we didn’t have to step in as far and back out to retrieve gun. normally WSB will state trigger over X. this fixes 99.9% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 3 hours ago, RIKott said: normally WSB will state trigger over X. this fixes 99.9% It would of fixed it if it was worded properly. Whatever is is that you want the shooter to do that is within the rules, make sure you put it in WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 11 hours ago, HoMiE said: It would of fixed it if it was worded properly. Whatever is is that you want the shooter to do that is within the rules, make sure you put it in WSB. what if it was worded properly and the designer really didn't care where you put the gun or if the PCC guys got to take 1 less step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 36 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: what if it was worded properly and the designer really didn't care where you put the gun or if the PCC guys got to take 1 less step. The stage I designed said standing downrange anywhere within fault lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 39 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: what if it was worded properly and the designer really didn't care where you put the gun or if the PCC guys got to take 1 less step. I like stages like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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