Aimed Pairs

[kz45Stu]

Hi Guys. Please help me out here, I'm totally stumped. When I shoot two shots on a target slowly they land right on top each other. As soon as I speed up, the first shot is dead centre, but the second shot is always left and usually high

Is this a result of grip pressure, too much finger, too little trigger finger ?? It's driving me nuts !! Please help

[kimel]

I suspect you aren't watching your front sight and are rushing the second shot.

Notice what your perfect sight picture is. Fire the shot and watch your front sight lift in recoil. Now follow it back into alignment with the rear sight and don't fire until you have the perfect alignment again.

In most of our games where rapid fire is the name of the game perfect pairs are not required. Find what is acceptable to you.

Another thing that is very valuable here are Matt Burkett's timing drills. More info is available at Matt's website. Rapid fire has a lot to do with rythm and cadence. You can burn up incredible amounts of ammo with this drill but it really is the best thing I have ever found for helping you "become one with the gun". I always run through this drill with a new gun, a resprung gun, a new load or if I have been off the range for too long.

Good luck and welcome to the forums!

Edited September 16, 2005 by kimel

[George]

Shooting "pairs" is the problem. Every part of sight picture, trigger control and follow through must be practiced for each and every shot. It took a while, but I eventually learned that no matter how many hits are required on any given target, each shot is always it's own individual shot. Simple, profound and immensly effective when practiced. Go just as fast as the sights tell you to, no more, no less. Learning the quality of sight picture required for any given shot is the key. That varies according to the target in question.

--

Regards,

Edited September 16, 2005 by George

[GuildSF4]

Addendum to above comments: check to see that you have a neutral grip as described in Brian's book 'Beyond Fundamentals'. (Paraphrased: Try shooting from a rest slow fire and make sure the sights return to the same spot every time without you needing to adjust them, you can adjust your grip to get this result.)

[kz45Stu]

Thanks Guys, I don't think grip is the problem. I can put all the shots on top each other when I shoot slowly. The problem is that when I crank up the speed, my second shot lands up high and to the left. Does the gun torque naturally in this direction (.45 Bul M5) and I pull the shot before it has come back down again ?

[Pierruiggi]

In my experience, this type of shooting, when the initial shot is dead center and the other is somewhere else is because of these factors.

-Not seeing where the gun is aimed (by whatever focus you happen to use on that particular moment). Shooting from cadence, hearing, or double tapping/hammering.

-Tension causing inconsistent recoil management. The actual path of the front sight doesn't matter providing you can call the shot, track it as it lifts out of the notch and track it as it comes back down into the notch. Also, if you're tense (and non neutral), the sights will end up unaligned (misaligned) after the shot is fired. Usually pointing high too.

Analize what those 2 events mean to your shooting, specially when firing multiple shots.

[Pierruiggi]

Thanks Guys, I don't think grip is the problem. I can put all the shots on top each other when I shoot slowly. The problem is that when I crank up the speed, my second shot lands up high and to the left.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps that's the problem.

You must learn to "see fast" and to control the gun tensionless at speed.

Shooting multiple shots fast pushes our limits and exposes problems and errors we can "get away" with in slow fire. The key is to identify and correct those errors through analisis. Always analize from experience, not preconception. Good luck.

[XRe]

I don't think grip is the problem. I can put all the shots on top each other when I shoot slowly. The problem is that when I crank up the speed, my second shot lands up high and to the left. Does the gun torque naturally in this direction (.45 Bul M5) and I pull the shot before it has come back down again ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're skipping over some very good experience, here. When you shoot slowly, your body has a chance to realign the sights regardless of where they end up following each shot. Proper grip allows the gun to return to *exactly* the same spot, regardless of how fast you're shooting. When you "crank up the speed" with a bad grip - and lacking awareness of your sights - you'll see this behavior where things tend to fall apart at high speed.

You're also not seeing your sights on the second shot - which means you're shooting faster than you can see. Shots don't ever just "end up" somewhere. You launch them there. Most of us have learned the fallacy of shooting doubles - the only way to guarantee both rounds hit the A-zone is to aim *both* shots, which requires actively seeing the sights for both shots. If you're doing that, you'll know as soon as the shot's fired where it ended up on the target (this is called "calling your shots").

Learning to do those two things - natural, neutral, effective grip, and call all your shots - will negate the effects of recoil, torque, etc. All you should be concerned about is seeing the sights on the target, and pulling the trigger when they're in the A-zone.

It may sound like that's avoiding your question(s) - the answers to all of them are "yes and no". Proper grip and stance allows me to do several things:

- bring the gun back to point of aim in the quickest possible fashion (in reality, I'm just letting the gun cycle w/ as little influence as possible)

- manage recoil energy (specifically, muzzle rise) effectively, allowing me to more easily track the sights on the target, and therefore be able to achieve my next sight picture as quickly as possible

- intrinsically KNOW where the gun is pointed through feel - if you can't line your body up on a target, close your eyes, draw the gun, and be pointed at the target.... you have grip and stance issues. It's useful to practice on a 12" plate with your eyes closed occasionally to help trust that feel...

Brian's book will also expose to you what constitutes an acceptable sight picture for targets of varying difficulties, etc. Sometimes, you need perfect sights that you follow through. Sometimes (much more rarely, and only on targets at "touching" range) you only need to see the sillouhette of the gun over the target. Most of the time, you just need to see the sights on the target and see them start to lift as you break the shot, so that you can call the shot accurately.

Hope that helps - there's a lot of awesome info on this board, and most of us have "been there, done that" with the problems you describe. Don't discount what's being given to you out of hand

Maku mozo!

[zhunter]

Thanks Guys, I don't think grip is the problem. I can put all the shots on top each other when I shoot slowly. The problem is that when I crank up the speed, my second shot lands up high and to the left. Does the gun torque naturally in this direction (.45 Bul M5) and I pull the shot before it has come back down again ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude

Go to Matt Burkett's site, and read the timing drills. They talk about grip and it is a 3 step process to determine which grip is best for you. This does sound like your problem. Much of Matt's advise on this issue is grip pressure.

Try it, you'll like it!

[moverfive]

Thanks Guys, I don't think grip is the problem. I can put all the shots on top each other when I shoot slowly. The problem is that when I crank up the speed, my second shot lands up high and to the left.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps that's the problem.

You must learn to "see fast" and to control the gun tensionless at speed.

Shooting multiple shots fast pushes our limits and exposes problems and errors we can "get away" with in slow fire. The key is to identify and correct those errors through analisis. Always analize from experience, not preconception. Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So true - but another thing I think needs to be added: are you truly seeing your front sight/dot as you increase your speed? If you are, then you aren't shooting too fast....you just cannot hit very well at that speed. My point and as he stated above, as you increase your speed to the maximum level that your particular eye-hand coordination will allow, your accuracy will slip UNTIL you learn that particular speed. And this is where you burn mounds of ammo and local match time in order to master that speed.

And to some degree, this is almost like relearning aspects of the sport. For some, they start off running and gunning hard......so they are learning the game AND their appropriate timing initially. This is how many good shooters rocket up the classification scale so fast. Others may start off shooting slow in order to be able to hit everthing - even though they probably could be shooting and moving much faster. So once they learn the game, they still haven't learned to shoot at their appropriate speed. And this is where their frustration kicks in - the know they can shoot faster, but when they try, they don't score well and quickly return to slower shooting......whereas, if they would stick with it a little longer, the pieces will begin to fall in place for them.

But the bottom line is - if you are truly seeing your front sight/dot, keep pushing and soon your hits will start to group back where you expect them to be......but you will be doing it much faster.

[vluc]

Remember Brians' different levels of focus as well.

[Loves2Shoot]

Grip, trigger pull, sight alignment...

If it is going high left, you are not correctly executing one of the three.

If you don't see it going high left, then you need to make sure you see where the sights are lined up before breaking the second (every) shot.

It is pretty simple, but not that easy.

It is easy to pull the trigger fast and have them hit close enough to score "most of the time", this is the big "trap" for shooters who are striving to improve.

[Genghis]

The RO at a recent match told me to slow down. I did, and immediately started getting the hits. I sped up faster than before, and had no problems.

I've noticed this problem before. I tend to overanalyze, but misses in practical shooting for me often come back to trigger control. I switched from a 1911 to a Witness and could not hit anything. Turns out the trigger is a lot harder, and I was pushing the shots off the target.

[LPatterson]

Thanks Guys, I don't think grip is the problem. I can put all the shots on top each other when I shoot slowly. The problem is that when I crank up the speed, my second shot lands up high and to the left. Does the gun torque naturally in this direction (.45 Bul M5) and I pull the shot before it has come back down again ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ideally the sight should track straight up & back down so it might be time to do some bench work to see if that is the case. I tried several different springs and discovered that they could change group location even from a perfect slow fire bench position. I don't understand the dynamics of what I discovered but I discovered that the spring that gave me the smallest group from the bench also allowed me to shoot faster controlled pairs. It is also possible to create great point of impact changes with subtle changes in grip pressure so it sounds like you need to work on both.

[SRT Driver]

Seeing is everything. Perfect grip, trigger control, timing means nothing if your vision is not giving you the input you need. But your needs can vary from shot to shot.

Knowing what or how much vision is the problem that everyone needs to figure out for themselves. Sometimes it is very little, sometimes it's the perfect sight picture and trigger control. It depends on the shot.

Breaking free of the perfect sight picture is difficult but necessary in many cases, especially in IPSC. You simply don't need perfect sight alignment all of the time to get an acceptable hit.

[SRT Driver]

Another thing. A friend and M class shooter mentioned today that he should take the sights off his gun and shoot considering that most of the stages we have shot recently were not that difficult and "in your face".

That may be a stretch but a valuable insight nonetheless.

[Paladin]

Triple Bill Drill:

Set up 3 targets at 7yds. and shoot a bill drill on each. Run the targets in sequence with only a slight break in between. For this drill it is extremely important that you forget about results as this will lead to tension which can mask the technical problem or induce other technical problems, let the process work!!

1st target: perfect visual control- get your classic sight picture on each shot, call your shots and followthrough.. do not read the target results..

yet.

2nd target: classic sight picture on first shot and just blaze after that. do not read the target results..yet.

3rd target: classic sight picture on first shot, for the other shots as soon as the sights drop into the notch break the shot, no adjustments, or cleaning up of the sight picture..

Now score your targets and let the shooting tell you its story..look at the pattern of shots, recall how you felt whilst shooting on each target and what you noticed, or did not notice..

This will tell you what you need working on right now, you fix that, run through this drill a couple more times, and then start to move back the target to 10yds, 15 yds, 20 yds, 25 yds. Pretty soon you can place 2 shots on target on demand irrespective of challenge..you then build it up to 2 targets, 3 targets etc...

[DougCarden]

KZ, also try some diffent recoil springs. Set up a target at 7yds, Bear down on the front sight and shoot two shots quickly. The first one should be where you aimed for and then see where the other one went. If you are doing things correctly (grip,stance, etc.) the rounds should be close. If the second one is low, your recoil spring is more than you need. If it is high then it might be too light. Do this a minimum of 10 times so you can see a pattern, and paste the second shot each time. I try to set my guns up with the springs and the load I am going to be shooting. This helped a lot when I first started, but as I have progressed it doesnt make as much difference, but something to try if you havent! Good Luck, DougC