Why Not Producton Major?

[Jim Norman]

I was thinking over the weekend that in the US where we have a 10 round limit in Production, there are many guns that are viable in Production and you can shoot 9mm, to .45 as long as it is a DA first shot, but in IPSC since there is no rouund count limit, only a flush magazine, you are essentially limited to a 9mm since the extra rounds make so big a difference in the way the game is played. What would happen if we allowed a Major/Minor scoring, but kept everything else the same?

For the USPSA, this is not a concern as we have leveled the playing field by limiting the shooter to 10 rounds. In IPSC this is not wanted becasue of the concern that if we have a limit of 10 rounds that some counties will impose that limit across the board. Making this change would open up the game to several more guns and maybe to people that already have a gun, but are not shooting Production becasue of the bias.

Just a discussion, more related to IPSC than to USPSA.

Jim Norman

[Merlin Orr]

I don't see that - if all other criteria are met - that allowing major & minor would be a negative factor. I wonder if some of the hot rocks in Production would move to a major PF if it were allowed... If Dave S or Angus or Matt M had the option of Major - .....???? what would happen?

[spook]

What would happen if we allowed a Major/Minor scoring, but kept everything else the same?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The same thing as in Standard. Almost everyone would start shooting major.

[Jim Norman]

Charlie,

Right now they have no real choice, they can shoot major, but there is a decided disadvantage to it. If we allowed Major/Minor scoring, then the capacity issue would have to be balanced against the PF issue.

Understand, I have no real horse in this race, I do shoot production here in the US, but since we are limited to 10 rounds, i can shoot my Sig226 of my G22 or darn near anything else I want to and be competitive, where in IPSC, I would have to shoot a berretta or similar in 9mm whether or not I liked it since most other guns run a 2-3 round disadvantage especially if I chose to shoot a .40/10mm ot horrors, a .45

Jim

[lynn jones]

Making this change would open up the game to several more guns and maybe to people that already have a gun, but are not shooting Production becasue of the bias.

Jim Norman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nope!

these guns you speak of can still shoot in production. just scored minor of course. if you open up production to major, you'd just kill off production, period. the minor is the point of production.

lynn

[John Baier]

Making this change would open up the game to several more guns and maybe to people that already have a gun, but are not shooting Production becasue of the bias.

Jim Norman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nope!

these guns you speak of can still shoot in production. just scored minor of course. if you open up production to major, you'd just kill off production, period. the minor is the point of production.

lynn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Lynn on this one

[Matthew_Mink]

Here is my take: In the US, where we are limited to 10rds, keep it as minor scoring. However, in the rest of the world where you can decide your own capacity, maybe Major/Minor makes a little sense?

Maybe in USPSA, we could have Production Major/Minor where Major gets 8+1 and Minor gets 10+1, kinda like Single stack classic rules.

Maybe in IPSC we could have the same thing, but unlimited capacity as long as no extended baseplates are used.

Just some thoughts I don't know which I would shoot, Major or Minor. But in reality I like USPSA Production just the way it is.

[NPSA 86-259]

Have you ever been shooting a 9 mm and right away after that a .40 S&W? Didn't you notice is was easier to shoot the .40 S&W? So why bother about major or minor.

In my opion the IPSC should make it much easier to all of us, just one (1) power factor in every Division. And everyone who wants to use a bigger, stronger and heavier cartridge its just up to himself to deal with it.

[Chuck D]

Wouldn't it be safe to say that they're are more 9mm's sold to the average gun owner than say 40's or 45's that meet P.D. criteria?

I know more people that own Glock 17's, Beretta 92's and Smith 5906's than say guys/gals that own 40's or 45's, 1911's exculded.

The way P.D. rules are written (personal opinion here) is to attract IDPA's SSP shooters and those guys use 9mm's mostly.

Correct me if I'm wrong....

[Rob Boudrie]

Chuck is not wrong.

Allowing major/minor in production would be the same as telling all 9mm shooters "your equipment cannot compete effectively, please talk to us after you buy another gun."

[NPSA 86-259]

What would be the difference between Standard and Production if both have minor and major power factors? In fact none.

[Merlin Orr]

What would be the difference between Standard and Production if both have minor and major power factors? In fact none.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lot of difference in the US... No Standard div. here.

[Flexmoney]

Allowing major/minor in production would be the same as telling all 9mm shooters "your equipment cannot compete effectively, please talk to us after you buy another gun."

Ditto.

[NPSA 86-259]

Lot of difference in the US... No Standard div. here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should the rest of World do what the US wants them to do. Why ain't the US take a look over the fence and see how others do it and maybe think about doiing it different.

What I do read between the lines is how to get even with a gun with less rounds.

Pff, in 1993 no US shooter did not care they had High Cap gun while the others had none. Now it is different, the others have High Caps and the US 10 rounds max and suddenly rules have to be changed? Make no sense to me babe.

[dcloudy777]

Another plus for the 9mm "bias" is ammo cost. Some shooters, and quite a few newer shooters (which are drawn to Production anyway), don't reload. Factory 9mm is very, very cheap, quite a bit more so than any other centerfire chambering (except maybe .38spec.). By introducing major PF you're going to de facto require major PF to be competitive, and I can see that driving away alot of shooters. Look at it this way... Production is arguably the lowest "price point" to shoot USPSA... if you raise that price point, you're going to exclude those who either cannot or will not spend more to shoot. just my $1/50

DanO

[Merlin Orr]

Lot of difference in the US... No Standard div. here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should the rest of World do what the US wants them to do. Why ain't the US take a look over the fence and see how others do it and maybe think about doiing it different.

What I do read between the lines is how to get even with a gun with less rounds.

Pff, in 1993 no US shooter did not care they had High Cap gun while the others had none. Now it is different, the others have High Caps and the US 10 rounds max and suddenly rules have to be changed? Make no sense to me babe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My reply was more in thinking of the USPSA rather than IPSC. I don't & probably won't ever shoot anywhere but behind "the fence." Sorry to upset you...

[Vlad]

Lot of difference in the US... No Standard div. here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should the rest of World do what the US wants them to do. Why ain't the US take a look over the fence and see how others do it and maybe think about doiing it different.

What I do read between the lines is how to get even with a gun with less rounds.

Pff, in 1993 no US shooter did not care they had High Cap gun while the others had none. Now it is different, the others have High Caps and the US 10 rounds max and suddenly rules have to be changed? Make no sense to me babe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Moderators: I dont know if this is too close to the line. Feel free to nuke my post if you think it outside the bounds. It is not my intention to start a fight.

Huh .. thats a strange tone. No US shooters that I know tell international shooters what to do. Some of us may disagree but generally shrug. Please dont make this a fight where an honest question was asked.

I LOVE the way way US production is done, the 10rd limit allows a lot more guns to play, and hence reduces the price of admition for new shooters who can be competitive with whatever gun they may have. Currently the IPSC production division seems to be heading towards huge guns (no box to contain them) with the goal of max capacity. As such the birth of production race guns is upon us with guns from Tanfoglio, CZ, and SIG as the first few. Sooner or later the average semiautomatic someone may own as a new shooter will be about as usefull as a stick as far as the production division is concerned. Welcome to the new equipment race.

You can disagree with me and maybe you are right, I dont shoot IPSC, so what do I know. However if I am right, allowing minor/major in IPSC production means you now have to choose between high capacity or Major powerfactor. I suspect people will go for the capacity, but at those who cant afford the super wiz bang "production" race guns will be able to bring their 13 round .40's or .45's and not feel completely left out. This is of course completely unimportant in USPSA production as the problem is solved by the 10rd limit. I suspect part of the problem is that in most of the world firearm ownership has a different aspect then in the US and hence the different prespectives on the issue and on how important it is for the average Joe to walk in on at a match and not feel like they dont belong.

I think Jim had a speculative question. More of an intelectual "what if". No one told anyone what to do.

[NPSA 86-259]

Wasn't the question about:

Why Not Producton Major?, In IPSC this would reduce the 9mm bias

.............You can disagree with me and maybe you are right, I dont shoot IPSC, so what do I know. However if I am right, allowing minor/major in IPSC production means you now have to choose between high capacity or Major powerfactor....................

If you are just shooting USPSA the thred must be about USPSA Division rules and not IPSC. Why bother about high caps anyway? USPSA has different rules as IPSC has. That OK. "Local"rules are allowed.

[spook]

Charlie,

Right now they have no real choice, they can shoot major, but there is a decided disadvantage to it. If we allowed Major/Minor scoring, then the capacity issue would have to be balanced against the PF issue.

Understand, I have no real horse in this race, I do shoot production here in the US, but since we are limited to 10 rounds, i can shoot my Sig226 of my G22 or darn near anything else I want to and be competitive, where in IPSC, I would have to shoot a berretta or similar in 9mm whether or not I liked it since most other guns run a 2-3 round disadvantage especially if I chose to shoot a .40/10mm ot horrors, a .45

Jim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim,

I see what you mean. Unfortunately the PF vs. capacity issue is not as balanced as it should be. As a matter of fact, I think it is already sorted out which is better. Just look at IPSC Standard. The guns have a little more capacity than IPSC production (but not as much as USPSA's Limited). But nobody shoots minor Standard (even though you could shoot 22+1 instead of 18+1). The advantage of shooting major is much bigger than having to do 4 extra reloads in a match.

So, yes IPSC production is a 9mm division right now. Until you recognize major.

Bjorn

[Jim Norman]

Charlie,

That was exactly my point. And Vlad made it even better. In IPSC, not so much in USPSA, there are new guns coming out that are built tothe rule that increase capacity. Since there is no capacity limit, only a flush magazine, 9mm rules. I simply cannot be competative in IPSC with a Sig226 where here in the US I can be.

NPSA 86-259 As to this whether this thread should only be about USPSA because I only shoot USPSA and not internationally... That is an interesting point of view. Are you saying that only those that shoot in a particular region should have anything to say about shooting in the world in general? I am a member of IPSC due to my membership in USPSA, therefore I am qualified, at least by membership to speak about IPSC, I would not tell you how your particular region should address its situations, but IPSC in general I think is open for discussin here.

Jim Norman

[Vlad]

Wasn't the question about:

Why Not Producton Major?, In IPSC this would reduce the 9mm bias

.............You can disagree with me and maybe you are right, I dont shoot IPSC, so what do I know. However if I am right, allowing minor/major in IPSC production means you now have to choose between high capacity or Major powerfactor....................

If you are just shooting USPSA the thred must be about USPSA Division rules and not IPSC. Why bother about high caps anyway? USPSA has different rules as IPSC has. That OK. "Local"rules are allowed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...

Ok, I wont take the bait and start a USPSA vs IPSC fight. Just remeber that about half of the IPSC memebership shoots under those "local" rules you refer to.

Lets however answer your questions:

a ) As a USPSA member Jim is a IPSC member. He can speculate to his heart content about the IPSC rules. Hell he can do it if he was a member of the Icecream Polishing Society of Canada. Its a free world and asking questions and having disussions its how the world move forward. Maybe his idea sucks, maybe it doesnt. If you think it sucks attack his idea not his motives.

b ) The question is VERY valid in USPSA. It is not secret that a number of people would like to see USPSA production go to hi-cap rules. It is doubtfull that it will because it would screw to many people and the majority think the 10 round limit is good idea in this case. BUT if that does change, having the discussion about minor/major ahead of time opens up avenues of thought and possibilities not had before.

PS: this Smilley is a pain in my butt cause it makes it hard to make lists

[spook]

Charlie,

That was exactly my point. AndVlad made it even better. In IPSC, not so much in USPSA, there are new guns coming out that are built tothe rule that increase capacity. Since there is no capacity limit, only a flush magazine, 9mm rules. I simply cannot be competative in IPSC with a Sig226 where here in the US I can.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah yes, I totally agree. The IPSC PD guns got to have high (17+1+) capacity to be "competitive". This rules out all kinds of cool 9mm pistols. There has been discussion about just limiting the capacity (something which I am for), but apparantly, many people are against this. And it also brings practical problems if you limit the capacity to say, 15+1.

[Jim Norman]

I understand that in certain places where we currently have no capacity limits, introducing a voluntary limit may cause a government to say " Ah, I see you realy don't need 29 rounds to shoot this sport, you are now limited to X rounds" .

This having been said, There are already places in the world, with limits, either on capacity or caliber or both. Austrailia has a 9mm limit, Canada has 10 rounds, here inthe US we have a state or two with limits, Hawaii and California have 10 rounds, NJ 15, Maryland I think is 20. Some allow "grandfathering" others don't.

It is a shame that we are put into the same catagory as criminals and terrorists by our governments, especially by those governments that seem to have a problem dealing with the real problems and instead focus on fluff, but that is a drift from this thread. It meerly is here to point outthe side of the argument that is against limited capacity in Production or the introduction of a Limited-10 into IPSC.

[sfinney]

My impression of why the Glock division....(errr I mean the Production division) was started was to attract new shooters to the sport, where they could just show up and shoot their 9mm and larger "real" guns.... without being handicapped for shooting 9mm. It gave minor 9mm shooters somewhere to compete on a level field.

Also, the capacity issue is still an issue in some states, and lots of Beretta/Glock/Sig owners etc out there still have only 10 round mags, nationwide. Requiring someone to buy all new mags just to play our game might be just enough to turn them away, as a new shooter.

While some of the best shooters in the country play in and rule Production division, it was intended as a starting place for newer shooters, IMHO. If you want to shoot major, or use hi-cap mags, shoot Lim or Open. Theres plenty of room for everyone in one of the many divisions, why make Production just like Limited, except DA only?

[NPSA 86-259]

Nice discussion but what will really happen in the USA after the GA in Ecuador if the GA decides to change PD in IPSC? Does anyone what your RD will decide?