Trigger Weight/split Times

[postal]

Ok I am not sure if this is the correct forum since it is a training/equipment question, but here goes

My current set up is a Wilson combat with a factory trigger of 3.2 pounds, while I average my slits in the high teens with occasional .16, I was discussion a new gun I am getting with a more experienced shooter/gunsmith and he told me to get my splits down I need to up the poundage through my sear spring because any faster than I am already I will get trigger freeze, ok so I fully understand the logic of having a light trigger through the means of the sear, and then tuning the sear spring to make it push the trigger past reset faster, but I am curious as to how many of you do it

{do i need to tune my spring}

And any exercises you do besides the normal bill drills etc to get your splits down

[Loves2Shoot]

It doesn't make sense to me. I've shot the same splits with many different platforms of guns (1911, Glock, XD, Sig) and different trigger weights (sub 1 lb to 4 lb triggers) and they are all fast enough.

I think you shouldn't shoot splits faster than you can see. If you can get .16's and see them, then you have nothing to worry about. If you just want to pull the trigger fast, well, I don't think that is a smart way to improve. In my thinking, it's not how fast you can shoot at a target that matters, it is how fast you can hit a target where you want to that counts.

.18 splits would will bring you well into GM class if you do everthing else properly. I've seen very few shooters who splits are the biggest thing needing improvement, but since fast splits sound cool, too many people worry about pulling the trigger too fast (faster than they can see the shot.)

Good luck

Seeing faster is the only way to reduce the time between shots for me.

[postal]

Loves2shoot where are your splits with those guns?

I have to say I can honestly see them at around .18-.20, it is not the only thing I work on, but I do not think it should be ignored

I am curious for those that do get their splits down in the low teens, where does {or if }trigger freeze becomes an issue, and how is it cured

So far my best bill drill is 1.77{average 2.06}, transitions .30 with ok accuracy great accuracy at .40

[Loves2Shoot]

Trigger freeze is caused from tension, the cure is to relax and see your shots and practice.

PM sent.

[XRe]

Scott, all that you say is true. I've found that, while working on losing the tension, it has helped me in the past to have a little more trigger return (not sear spring) on my trigger job - it seems to help remind the trigger finger to get back off the trigger. Admittedly, it's a crutch...

postal, forget about split times.... as your shooting gets better, your splits will likely improve, but it won't be from trying to shoot splits... If I were a betting man, though, I'll bet Scott can rip .11s, maybe faster, though....

[Ron Ankeny]

I should be the poster child for trigger freeze. In a nutshell, ditto to L2S with one exception.

I've shot the same splits with many different platforms of guns (1911, Glock, XD, Sig) and different trigger weights (sub 1 lb to 4 lb triggers) and they are all fast enough.

In my case, a lot of those splits were way more than fast enough. In fact, they were too fast.

[Zerwas]

I've heard by many people that split times do not make champions. Its your transition times that make the biggest difference. How quickly you get from point A to point B is more crucial than pulling the trigger quickly.

I like that way of thinking because if all we consentrate on is sheer speed of the trigger we loose our focus on the fundamentals of shooting ie the FRONT site.

Matt Burkett has a great example of this on his video with what he calls cadence. It is a great learning tool.

[postal]

Thanks for the replies, because I like my trigger just the way it is, and was not sure I wasn’t getting better times from what was mentioned to me, at only one time I ever had trigger freeze, I never experienced it before therefore when it happened for that split millisecond I had no ideal until I was actually done, but it was caused from shooting a double/single trigger on a different gun for a few weeks, I never have had it before or since, because I figured out it was more of a subconscious action

Yes I agree about transitions, not just getting your gun to point b from point a, your vision is the week link in the process, I practice side to side transitions from left to right/right to left , and near to far/far to near transitions, all while seeing the target

[MikeFoley]

Postal,

All good advice. Splits don't mean much in the end results. That said, I can get .10 on my STI, .12 on my Glock, so there is not much correllation in trigger pull weight vs. split times, it mainly has to do with manipulation. Splits of .16 with 2 alphas are fine, any splits between alphas are your goal, let your eyes and sight alignment on the A zone guide your timing, and all else will be fine. Heck, you may even be faster if you aren't thinking about splits. BTW, I have never done anything faster than .12-.13 in an actual match, and they are typically anywhere from .13-.18 at 10 yards and less.

[ong45]

could be i'm just a slow pokey shooter, but rarely do i ever shoot faster than a .25 split in a match

maybe i need to work in it eh?

James

[eric nielsen]

Once you learn the Hit Factor scoring system [this will take effort & questions - many shooters never learn it] you will see how a fairly new shooter can show up to a match, shoot splits that are TWICE as long as most of the field of competitors, and finish up very high in the standings. Like say 5th out of 25 shooters.

I showed up at matches after reading Brian's book and practicing on my own for a few weeks and finished high in the order like that many times. Once in a while I'll still see a new shooter do that, but it's rare.

Much more common is the new shooter who speeds up everything way past the point where he can call his shots. But he "sounds like" the top shooters. My $.02

[spook]

could be i'm just a slow pokey shooter, but rarely do i ever shoot faster than a .25 split in a match

maybe i need to work in it eh?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehe, I like that James. Same here man. Never faster than .20 in matches.

[Loves2Shoot]

could be i'm just a slow pokey shooter, but rarely do i ever shoot faster than a .25 split in a match

maybe i need to work in it eh?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But we know he can

I try not too shoot to out seeing my sights, but sometimes I unleash splits-o-furry and it almost is never worth it. That comes from my old thinking that I need to shoot fast to do well. Watch the vids of Dave Sevigny and his splits and make your own conclusion. He has .15's but doesn't use them much.

Open class shooting is different, you can see faster so you can split faster, and if your gun is setup right, you can double tap and survive, but the time is made between targets and most time is made on the "tough" targets.

Being in control of your trigger is the key.

[Jake Di Vita]

Double tap and survive?

I can shoot .11 splits in matches and see what I need to see....no double tapping allowed.

[TDean]

Double tap and survive?

I can shoot .11 splits in matches and see what I need to see....no double tapping allowed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On a 25yd partial Jake?

[Jake Di Vita]

At any range and any difficulty, I shoot as quickly as I can while keeping them in the center...

[Loves2Shoot]

At any range and any difficulty, I shoot as quickly as I can while keeping them in the center...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.11 split @ 25 yard partial sweet

I have the same triggers on my L and O guns, but I can knock .02-.04 off the splits with the open because it is easier to see for me. When my eyes tell my finger to pull the trigger it good, if I do it by reflex, well that isn't good

A good tool to measure splits is to see how consistant they are, not just in doubles, but any number in a row. (2-20+)

[BSeevers]

At any range and any difficulty, I shoot as quickly as I can while keeping them in the center...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.11 split @ 25 yard partial sweet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.11 @ 25?

Me thinks luck

I have shot lot's of .11's at a match, at 3 yards, but I do aim every shot seeing what I need to see

[Jake Di Vita]

I never said .11 at 25 yards...I said at any range I shoot as quickly as I can while keeping them in the center.

[Harmon]

i can get down in the .13-14 range with my open gun..with the glock, .15 or so...

only when the targets are within 10 feet of you can i see 2 alphas with the glock that fast.

the tougher the shot, slower the split...you should not worry bout the split too much, in fact slow it down and pick up your transitions to where they are the same as your splits...

[Bob Hostetter]

Increasing the trigger return spring tension is an old trick for setting up revolvers. Because of the long reset distance in a revolver trigger the extra spring pressure helps reset the trigger quicker. Because of that you could start pulling the trigger again quicker thus reducing your splits.

On a 1911 it is not nearly as important. The distance from fully against the overtravel stop to the point at which the sear/disconnector reset is much more important. That reduces the likelyhood of short stroking the trigger which is what you are referring to as trigger freeze. Also as others have mentioned too much tension in your trigger finger/hand will cause you to short stroke or not fully release the trigger causing the same problem.

Target to target transistions and foot/body movement are much more important then splits. Taking a second or two off of the time it takes you to move from one shooting position to another will score a lot better then reducing your splits by another .01 seconds, especially if you are shooting better points.

[Crusher]

Don't look to change the guns mechanical function to shoot faster, learn to see, seeing produces repeatable results under ALL circumstances, you can NEVER see to much. As you are learning to see also learn reduce wasted movements.

I love watching those that hose the targets with marginal hits and blazing fast transitions/splits and look they have the "herk-a-jerk" as the proceed through a course of fire.

[BSeevers]

I never said .11 at 25 yards...I said at any range I shoot as quickly as I can while keeping them in the center.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No L2S and TDean did with their tongue firmly in cheek like me. That's what we meant by the smiley with tongue out.

[postal]

Ok I brought this back to the top because I actually have done it {trigger freeze} at two matches since I posted this, and after re reading it, I again thanks for the advice but here is my conclusions after the advice and replaying the nightmare of it happening over and over again

First I do realize how important and un important split times are, while I do agree with you guys that it is a small portion of your shooting capabilities, I do feel they cannot be ignored, and have not been ignored by most of you, or you would not know what your times are

I do think it is a user malfunction, and not a mechanical error, during some bill drills on Friday I was in the mid teens {down from high teens}, and the next day at a match I had 4 targets first was yards second was 5 out to 15 or so, the problem occurred only at the 3 yard target, now playing this over and over, and comparing it to the same time it occurred in October the two incidents have one thing in common, both time where at three yards

So how do I figure out what exactly I am doing?, I do realize the easy solution of slowing down, but I have to know exactly why {I am sure most of you are the same way}, I suspect a few thing angle, or my brain moving to fast for my body {adult add will get you every time}

[Sam]

Trigger freeze is caused from tension, the cure is to relax and see your shots and practice.

-L2S

Postal, in answer to your question, "So, how do I figure out exactly what I'm doing?" We cannot "figure out" anything while shooting well. It is much better to simply establish intent and then just let that intent flow through the shooting. By this, I mean that our intent should be to call the shots, feel the trigger, move smoothly, ect. Conversely, if our intent is to win the stage, that is not a focused intention. An unfocused intention is just a hope for an outcome, instead of real time attention directed shooting. The human mind is an awesomely powerful instrument. But, much of the time it functions more like a sawed-off shotgun than a laser beam.

"Trying to figure things out" is a great activity to perform while standing in a hot shower. However, while performing tasks that require fine motor skills and high-speed manipulations, it will result in "blank spots" in the stream of conciousness. Have you ever tired to ride a wheelie on a dirt bike and calculate the value of your stock porfolio in your head at the same time?

Well..... that's how I got this..... scar...... right here.........

Edited November 20, 2005 by Sam