World Shoot In U.s.

[Precision40]

A discussion came up the other day about a possible what if.......The World Shoot were held in the U.S. Would we be using IPSC, not USPSA rules? ie..box rule, production trigger pull, mag carrier rules etc..? I would think the host countries rules would apply, but I could be totally wrong. Anyone with the definite answer?

[XRe]

When I shot the North American Champs in '98(??), it was, in fact, an IPSC match. At that point, it was Standard, Modified, and Open classes. Typical IPSC course complement (lots of short courses), etc. IPSC rules - USPSA rules did not apply.

A world shoot would be an IPSC match, and not a USPSA match - same thing would apply....

[Jim Norman]

Too bad! I think it would be better if our rules applied and our targets as well.

If the WS were held in Austrailia, we'd be limited to 9mm, if it were in certain countries, we would not be allowed in unless we had slightly longer barrels, In Germany, we cound not run while shooting. If it were held in Canada, we;d be limited to 10 rounds and in Japan I suppose we'd shoot Airsoft, so why shouldn't we have the WS run under our much better USPSA rules?

Jim Norman

[Rob Boudrie]

Two reasons:

#1: The limitations imposed by other nations are by law, not choice of the host nation.

#2: Those limitations are taken into account and I would expect are considered when selecting a venue.

[Jim Norman]

In two words: So What?

If we hold the match it should be on our terms on our turf so to speak, You want a PC Match, go to t a PC venue. The shooters of the world have no problem coming here for the USPSA Nationals, so why should they complain or fail to come for a WS?

My opinion of course.

Jim

[dirtypool40]

I think the target thing is largely an option. I spoke with Viktor and he said he had the option and planned (if allowed by the IPSC board) to use a combo, some on this stage some on others.

I've shot IPSC for almost two years now, came down here raving about how great USPSA was, but I gotta tell ya, they have me convinced, STANDARD is THE best class in the world. (IPSC just needs ONE pf for all majors).

Our production is better, if we would drop that goofy 10 round rule.

Open is about the same, but the different pf for open and limited just HAS to be decision by commitee somewhere.

International course design needs some work, so it's more of a shooting contest, but the small amoeba targets are tough. PC, yes, and I don't like that, but they are tough.

[Jake Di Vita]

I really couldn't care less about PC anymore. If using the "classic" targets promotes our sport....fantastic go for it. Lose the pride as it does absolutely nothing good for us.

How in the name of God would using our targets make the WS a better match?

[Chuck D]

Two quick points...

1st, the 10 round rule eliminates the arms race seen in IPSC P.D. It doesn't matter what caliber the gun is or how many round it holds. ALL guns are competitive with a 10 round limit in P.D.

2nd, the Classic target promotes accuracy...that's why it's perceived as a "hard target". With the oddly shaped A zone...to score well you need to obtain a sight picture...something not always necessary with the Metric target, especially at close distances.

Lastly...well said Jake.

[Rob Boudrie]

I really couldn't care less about PC anymore. If using the "classic" targets promotes our sport....fantastic go for it. Lose the pride as it does absolutely nothing good for us.

How in the name of God would using our targets make the WS a better match?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not that concerned about the targets, but I am concerned about reading a post somewhere down the line: "How in the world would permitting stage designs with doors, windows, cars and other props which depict real-world inspired scenarios make the WS a better match when we can have skill testing exercises without the political baggage of props which resemble the real world?".

Make absolutely no mistake about it - that is the next logical step.

[dirtypool40]

Rob's got the point.

In Germany they had to repaint all their props because they had painted some of them like cow towns in the US with windows, and brick pattern. The press / gubment said they were preparing for urban insurgency.

I agree, th PC Amoebas are a tough target. They are however, like the 10 round rule in Prod, and the different power factors, poorly thought out and need fixing. Just the fact that they were given the dubious name of "classic" is enough to convince me.

The ten round rule in Production makes it a boring division. Zero creativity in how you can shoot a stage, and damned little in aggressiveness. YES I HAVE SHOT PRODUCTION. Maybe this isn't the thread for this, but telling yourself that limiting things to ten rounds will solve some equipment race is only fooling you.

Make them flat bottomed mags, or define what the capacity is for each model (hell you have a list, why not say what they hold).

Also, per usual, everyone is missing the point that IT'S STAGE DESIGN!!! I can set up amoebas so they shoot like "metrics" or vice versa, and with a little thought one or two rounds of capacity will not determine the winner. This is the same problem we have in L10.

Sorry, feel free to break this out...

[spook]

I really couldn't care less about PC anymore. If using the "classic" targets promotes our sport....fantastic go for it. Lose the pride as it does absolutely nothing good for us.

How in the name of God would using our targets make the WS a better match?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not that concerned about the targets, but I am concerned about reading a post somewhere down the line: "How in the world would permitting stage designs with doors, windows, cars and other props which depict real-world inspired scenarios make the WS a better match when we can have skill testing exercises without the political baggage of props which resemble the real world?".

Make absolutely no mistake about it - that is the next logical step.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there is nothing to worry about Rob. Just look at the stages in South Africa. Busses, jet planes etc. I think most people make the mistake of thinking that a World Shoot could only be held with stages that are allowed by the lowest common denominator in National laws of paticipating countries. That is not true.

In Germany it is not allowed to shoot on the move, but once you are outside of Germany, you can run and gun as much as you want, even if you are from Germany. Same goes for stage design and props.

[Rob Boudrie]

The stage designs from the Cebu, Phillipines World Shoot (which we by FAR the nicest stage diagrams I have ever seen, anywhere) were ordered removed from the official World Shoot/Cebu Website for reasons of political correctness.

I think most people make the mistake of thinking that a World Shoot could only be held with stages that are allowed by the lowest common denominator in National laws of paticipating countries. That is not true.

It may not be true of stage designs at thsi point, but it is already true of targets. There is at least one nation that has made it clear their members will not attend any world level match using IPSC Metric targets for political reasons.

If is a very real question to consider: How would a World Shoot react if a member nation told them "tone down the realism on the stages or we will not attend?"

Politically correct stage design is a real issue. The long term question is "what will the default standard be?". The de-facto international default standard is the PC target (which, interestingly enough, appears first in the rulebook specifically to make it easier for nations which wish to hide the IPSC Metric target to do so my removing one illustration). Will nations which shoot watered down stages become the standard, or remain a specific deviation only where required by local law or custom? Time will tell, but if we do not pay attention to this issue, PC will creep across the international community just like the proverbial camel's nose under the tent.

[Chuck Anderson]

"If we hold the match it should be on our terms on our turf so to speak, You want a PC Match, go to t a PC venue. The shooters of the world have no problem coming here for the USPSA Nationals, so why should they complain or fail to come for a WS?"

Simple, we're not holding the USPSA World Shoot. We'd be holding the IPSC World Shoot. If USPSA wants to make their own 800-1000 person match up, I've got no problem with that, but, the World Shoot is an IPSC event.

[Jake Di Vita]

Since when do stages have to mean anything? I shoot because I love it...I don't shoot USPSA for training, realism, or any of that other stuff. I have never once looked at a stage and thought "hmm if this were real and there were 15 guys wanting to kill me what would I do." Anyone who looks at stages and thinks realism simply doesn't get it IMHO.

The way it sounds is that you are thinking leaving the metric target would be a big blow to USPSA or a victory for people that don't like our sport. Sorry but I really don't buy it.

I think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill here...

If it gets to the point Rob is suggesting...no amount of effort or work from anyone will make a difference

[XRe]

+0.75 to Jake...

The folks that don't like what we do don't like it regardless of what target we shoot at...

[Chuck D]

after a while the "the sky is falling" mentality gets mighty old....

Who cares what color the props are? It is that big of a deal if the stage is called "shootout in downtown whatever" or if it's called "field course #3" ?

Regions will do what the need to do to provide this shooting sport to their fellow countrymen. If that means staying home because of a target choice...then stay home. But painting the entire IPSC community with the same P.C. conspiracy brush isn't fair and/or correct either. I can't begin to count the number of times I've read the "classic" target is shown first in the IPSC rule book argument and thought to myself... "big deal."

Do what you need to do to get the match in your region. Worry about the P.C. critics later. Most likely...they'll be the ones lobbying for a slot because the match is full.

[driver8M3]

The folks that don't like what we do don't like it regardless of what target we shoot at...

true...so we shouldnt be taking their advice on what our targets or props should look like (not that i think uspsa has been).

[spook]

If is a very real question to consider: How would a World Shoot react if a member nation told them "tone down the realism on the stages or we will not attend?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the big guys that "rule IPSC" decide on that. And if I look at the stages shot at the WS in South Africa, I don't think we have anything to fear.

And I personally wouldn't tone down anything for "one nation". Besides, I have seen the last US Nationals on DVD and I think that every stage could have been in a World Shoot. There would be more speed shoots in a WS and less long courses (and classic targets of course), but no change in "PC" should have been made. I've seen stages like that all around Europe.

But let's face it. We have been able to play this game from 1979 and are still playing.

[BritinUSA]

A World Championship would have to be shot under the 'World rules'; namely IPSC rules. The major differences are PF, and the Production Gun criteria. If anyone from USA is travelling to Ecuador then they will be competing under IPSC and not USPSA rules. It is really not a problem. I've done 3 World Shoots (wish it was more ) and I can honestly say it's a non-issue.

As to the targets, we can use a mixture as was done at USPSA Nationals. One stage 'classic' next stage 'metric', again I don't think it's a big deal.

We can publish politically correct stage designs on the web that just show the targets but to be perfectly honest with you I've never attended a match where the actual stage designs were exactly as shown in the book anyway... I don't think there's much to be gained from seeing the stage designs in advance of the match and in some cases it may be a dis-advantage, ie. you start thinking how to shoot the stage based on the picture and not reality.

I would dearly love to see a World Shoot come to USA. The Tulsa range looks like they are gearing up for that, if they can convince the RD to go for it then I am certain that USA would get the deal from IPSC at the 2008 GA.

[Julien Boit]

I'll second Jake on this one. Stages doesn't need to be "realistic" to be challenging for shooters.

For the target, I really don't care which one is picked, even if I do prefer the one currently in use in Europe. No big deal, this will be a challenge whatever the tagret is !

IPSC is the world governing body of practical shooting, including US, so it makes sense to me that IPSC rules are applied in a world shoot wherever it is hosted.

Also, you can try to get the nicest image you can with props, stage designs, target style, Anti Gun will never like us, so what .... Let's have fun !

[ErikW]

The question was answered in the first reply.

This is the rules forum.