Match Performance

[Loves2Shoot]

Okay, first of all, I don't give a rats a$$ about the guys at the top. I'm talking about MY performance against this shooter at this match and trying to figure out how he won the stage by shooting 1 second faster with a MISS!

Jake, he did not shoot more points - notice the 10 POINT PENALTY!

This is not the first time that someone ran a stage ONE SECOND faster than I did, but had a miss, and still came out on top. Someone somewhere HAS to be able to help me understand this. I'm at the point now where it's pretty durned important

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, at the top of any class (D-GM) the top times should be similiar.

He shot 2 more points than you before penatly but 17% faster with 91% of your points, it's all about math Short courses make it harder to understand because the time seems so small, but they affect the math so greatly % wise. Ie. in a 5 second stage, 1 second is worth about 20% with 60 points. In a 10 second 60 point stage, the same 1 second is only 10%. If you drop 10 in a 5 second stage, it is the same as shooting it one second slower. That's why he won the stage with 1.2 seconds, 1 second and you would have been even. I hope that helps some.

[Tom Balko]

While it is true you can't miss fast enough to win,,, it is also true that you can hit slow enough to lose. Somewhere in the middle is the sweet spot, and that sweet spot can move depending on the course of fire.

[benos]

Kath,

Jake's statement is true. In fact his entire post is right on the mark. It's easy to become confused and doubt what "should be" (your best interest in mind) your personal goal when you justify your performance by comparing yourself to a sub-par performance.

Saying that you are shooting too slow because you were beaten by a shooter who had a miss is not the best way to think about improving your performance. A good way to improve your performance is to study what the winners do, and then ask yourself "why am I not doing that"?

Instead of comparing your score to another shooter's who had a miss - ask yourself why you didn't shoot your A's more quickly.

Consistent winners have learned how to shoot good points quickly. Regardless of personal opinion, that is a fact.

Different kinds of people shoot stages differently. Some that have a knack for speed, shoot quickly but drop too many points. More cautious shooters, especially those who's brains are stuck on the idea that you have to shoot A's to win, shoot too slowly. Both approaches are wrong. The error in the "speed approach" is that although you must shoot "quickly," you also must shoot good points while doing that. The error in the "all A's" approach is that, although you must shoot "good points," you can't take too much time to do that. That's the beauty of the Comstock scoring system - shooting both quickly and accurately will get you the best score.

be

[Jake Di Vita]

Exactly what James said.

Frankly, points win matches at all skill levels. Obviously you can't take all day to shoot them though. But if you compare an average B class shooter to another average B class shooter....their times will be similar and the stage will most likely be won on points.

What you are doing is comparing an average B class shooter (you) to an average A class shooter (John). How can you expect the results of that comparison to be accurate?

[Shooter Grrl]

easy to become confused and doubt what "should be" (your best interest in mind) your personal goal when you justify your performance by comparing yourself to a sub-par performance...

be

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's downright spooky BE - that is EXACTLY what I'm dealing with. I'm shooting the best I ever have and I am still not "good enough".

Also, how can a stage win be a "sub-par" performance? The dichotomy of that exact statement is what is blowing me away this week

[Shooter Grrl]

What you are doing is comparing an average B class shooter (you) to an average A class shooter (John). How can you expect the results of that comparison to be accurate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um - it's goal setting. Put a target on a shooter I consider better than me - it used to be RB, I had to find a new one:wub: John is consistently winning the local matches, doesn't matter to me what class he is in.

And if I don't compare my average B to an average A, how am I going to know when I've hit that goal, of shooting as an average A shooter?

[XRe]

4 types of performances:

1 - good effort, good result

2 - poor effort, good result

3 - good effort, poor result

4 - poor effort, poor result

A sub-par performance that wins falls into the second category. It's possible to win with what may be a sub-par performance (for that competitor) because placing 1st in the match (or division, or whatever) also directly depends upon the performances of the other competitors.

[ong45]

Shooter Grrl Posted Today, 01:48 PM

That's downright spooky BE - that is EXACTLY what I'm dealing with. I'm shooting the best I ever have and I am still not "good enough".

You will most likely NEVER be good enough ,the day that you feel you are is the same day you sell that shiny gun

The top shooters didn't get there by ever being satisfied. (or maybe i'm self analyzing )

James

[BSeevers]

I think if SA, KF, or dare I say BS was at that match you would have seen a much different outcome. At least one of three would have run the stage in say 5.45 66 points(95% of available points) for a HF of around 12. John or Kathy don't take offense as I see both of you as very good shooters but I see too few points earned for a 5 sec 70 point stage. I wasn't at that match but know to win a stage like that I usually would drop 4 or 5 points and the speed guess is probably on the mark too. Heck recalculate JF at 4 points down. That 11 HF would have changed a lot. Heck recalculate him at 63 points (that's an A/C on every target) Still 10+ where I think it should be.

Kyle calls them free A's when its a close, open type fast and furious stage. I call them Necessary A's. Analyzing the results the points dropped seemed very high for a 5 sec(70 point) stage. A National level GM could definitly run it faster with a lot fewer dropped points.

One stage does not win a match or make a shooter.

Kathy when you enter the land of 10 HF's and 5 sec 14 rds stages.

1 to 2 seconds is a lifetime. Really. But if you had shot 90% of the points you would have won, solid. 95% in the same time would have been a blowout

[Shooter Grrl]

I think if SA, KF, or dare I say BS was at that match you would have seen a much different outcome. At least one of three would have run the stage in say 5.45 66 points(95% of available points) for a HF of around 12. John or Kathy don't take offense as I see both of you as very good shooters but I see too few points earned for a 5 sec 70 point stage.

one word - SWINGERS!!!

I would not consider this a fast easy stage - I was SMARTER than the rest of them. John shot it after me - had I gone last, I woulda smoked 'em all - trust me. Here's the rest of the results - you can see the difference - those are shooters that should not have been 1.5 seconds behind me

Stage: 5 Hold Still 2

Place Name No. Class Division Pts Pen Time Hit Fact Stg Pts Stg %

1 Fadorsen, John 11 A Open 59 10 5.86 8.3618 70.0000 100.00%

2 Littman, Kathy 9 B Open 57 0 7.08 8.0508 67.3965 96.28%

3 Keen, Chris 4 A Open 63 0 8.24 7.6456 64.0044 91.43%

4 Hoffman, Ben 20 M Open 59 0 8.42 7.0071 58.6593 83.80%

5 Steel, Rick 19 B Open 63 0 9.52 6.6176 55.3986 79.14%

6 Schattel, Dave 13 B Open 62 0 10.73 5.7782 48.3716 69.10%

7 Holloway, Jeff 18 B Open 60 0 11.72 5.1195 42.8574 61.22%

8 Bostick, Chris 14 B Open 57 10 11.16 4.2115 35.2562 50.37%

[BSeevers]

Half the shooters below you could have probably run it in 5 sec but I think I'll take the smarts, experience and match skills. Some of them are not as experienced in analyzing and shooting complex stages but have great raw skills.

Not antagnizing but still don't you think that a mininum A/C or 7 points dropped, on every target is "not too much to ask for"?

Your HF at the same time would be 8.89 100% win

[Flyin40]

Actually the stage was a difficult stage. You had to start in the box and couldn't see the activators, one left and one right back behind barrels. You had 4 targets in front then one swinger way out the right and one way out to the left. You had to shoot the targets inside the barrels then pick the swinger up on the outside of the swingers. You had some big transitions to get back to one swinger then back to the next. I noticed one thing I know no one else did and because of it I won the stage. The right swinger, once it was activated( it was hidden behind the barrel) never was hidin anymore. Regardless of when you shot the right target is was visible once activated "IF" you stepped forward and to the left and shot the stage.

The most important thing was timing the left swinger. Also need to add you had shot the targets in the middle that were in front of the barrels but to shoot the swingers you had to shoot around the back of the barrels. If you missed the timing it resulted in an 7 or 8 second stage because you had to wait. I credit several people for me being able to figure out stages more effeicently. ShooterGrrl's husband Dave, Flex(wow can this guy pick apart a stage and SA) I learn just as much from watching as I do actually practing and shooting.

I shot the stage differently then everyone else. I just figured the stage out better than everyone else. Shootgrl you stepped back and I stepped forward and shot the stage. I think that was the biggest difference. I had a better view from up front. I already had my gameplan prior to you shooting, I didn't change anything.

I shot the right activator then the left activator, shot the 4 targets then shot the swingers which I didn't have to wait on. I caught both in view but dropped some pts on them.

Flex actually this is what prompted my topic about calling shots. I called this a miss 100%, it was about 1/2 high above the target and I knew it. But I couldn't make it up. Thats what made me start trying to figure out why. I started talking to Dave about it right after.

ShooterGrrl,

My outlook is simple. I focus on my end goal which is nothing that will be achieved this yr and if everything goes well it will be attainable towards the end of next yr. I'm not worried about having misses. I'm 100% WORRIED about not learning from them. How many people have seen me at the end of match and grab the clipboard?? Most think I checking to see how I did and how everyone else did, its not, I writing down how many A's, C's, D's Misses and no shoots down so I can go over them in my head later. Do I want misses, Heck no, I want to shoot a clean match but I could care less about this yr or even winning. My goal doesn't involve winning anything, winning is a by product of attaining my goal. To reach my goal I will have misses and hit no shoots AS EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON ON THIS FORUM DID when they FIRST started shooting and still do today regardless of their level of shooting. I think missing and hitting no shoots are a requirement of learning how to become a better shooter. How else do you learn. I see to many people say "You shouldn't have had a miss or hit that no shoot". Its a part of shooting, its what you do when you hit the no shoot or have miss thats important, to be able to step back and I think Flex posted it somewhere, be nonjudgmental about your shooting so that you can learn from it. If as a shooter you get so caught up in shooting A's which is very important, Jake said it best about when M only dropped 25 pts the whole match, its critical at that level, the shooter starts holding back and the results are little or very slow improvement. In order to improve you have to push the threshold of your ability.

Shootergrrl ask yourself these things

What is my longterm goal (possibly high lady at nationals, high B class at nationals)

How will I achieve this goal?? (How should I practice, how do I prepare myself mentally, How do I shoot matches?? This is one I believe is importand that many people overlook. Personally I look at this yr as a sacrifice to be able to make myself a better shooter in the end. I'm willing to take chances, push my abilites in order to learn from them. I don't get upset about having a miss, I learn from it, it makes me a better shooter. I do get frustrated when I make mental error, like running past a target on Barnyard Hustle at the Ohio Match but I learned from that also, I haven't did it since.

What are my short term goals?? (working on the reload, the draw, plate drills, practicing visualization, it could be "shoot a clean match" See the dot on the A zone every shot)

How do I achieve these goals?? (praciting reloads, dryfiring, live fire practice, Not pulling the trigger unless its on the A zone regardless of time)

What are my strenghts?? (I love to shoot and enjoy doing it, pure determination, being able to understand my goals and have clear picture of how to achieve them. Not worried about winning or beating anyone(I find this a strong strength for myself, it allows me to focus more on myself instead of focusing on other shooters and what they are doing)

What are my weaknesses??? (lack of discipline when it comes to visual patience, more or less accepting a less than perfect sight picture, not being able to call every singleshot, lack of time to live fire, being able to figure out larger stages in the most efficient manner) being able to be honest with yourself is very important in this one.

The next one most people don't ask themselves

Do any of my goals conflict with my long term goal?? (If I had a long term goal of making GM and my short term goal was to have no misses at matches for the yr this would be conflicting for me at this point in my shooting. I NEED to learn as much as possible from practice as well as matches. I view both as a practice at this point. I started treating matches like matches but since have gone back to treating them as practice. I could shoot matches clean, I have no doubt about that but I shoot 4 matches a month X's 10 months, thats 40 matches. Thats a whole lot of experience to learn from. I could shoot it clean and take 5'x as long to learn those things, maybe 5 yrs to learn the things I could learn in a yr.

Don't be afraid to have a miss or to push yourself. But don't get upset when you have a miss because you won't learn from it. Ask yourself why, play the shot back in your mind and then work on those things that led to the miss. Learn how to use "making a mistake" a strength.

Pts are everything at the higher levels, local matches don't really give you a good idea about how points and speed work together unless you have one of those top guys around shooting the locals. I understand that to be successful at the higher level I have to not make mistakes and have high pts all while being able to see/shoot fast. I just have a different outlook than most on how to get to that point.

I want to say to all that respond I read every post and try to take away something from it and learn. I believe I can learn from anyone, even a D class shooter or a beginner, everyone has something to offer. So if sometimes in my post it sounds like I don't seem to be listening its not the case. I enjoying getting into the subject and exploring it. It lets me constantly look at my goals and ideas of what I should be doing.

Flyin40

[Loves2Shoot]

Sounds like you have things figured out, thanks for sharing.

This gets my vote for post of the month!!!

Good luck man.

[Flyin40]

I think if SA, KF, or dare I say BS was at that match you would have seen a much different outcome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BSeevers I have to agree with you, the outcome would been totally different, I would of had 3 more shooters behind me in while I was in 1st.

If I recall right here are my hits/pts from the stage

Left swinger 2 Delta- I had to rush this shot because the swinger was disappearing again.

2 Hits on steel activators

4 middle targets 7 alpha/1 mike which was about 1/2" high on the bottom right target

Right swinger 2 A's

59pts

Bill I'll agree that it was possible to get 95% of pts at 5.45. Thats was great math btw, Heres how, I know Flex and SA could of done it because of the speed of their draw. If they had engaged it the same as I did and picked up .4 on the draw(my draw not my strong point, I shot a 2.51 bang and clang with 39pts with a 1.4 draw after some coachng from DaveL) they could of went through the targets and not had a miss but they would have engaged that left swinger when it was coming out instead of going in and had more time. The right one didn't matter because it stayed visible after it was activated. As far as you doing it I'm not sure, For some reason I have no idea about your draw, I watch your transitions more than anything. But after that one stage down in circleville I'm sure you could of done it too. The stage with the dropturner and barrels, the one they had to call the fire department on because you caught it on fire after that smokin runyou had :lol:

This was not a fast and furios stage, you really really had to execute to shoot it well, swingers, activators behind barrels, no shoots. I would consider the stage in C-ville a fast and furious but this was more deliberate.

Flyin40

[shred]

Swingers are an exception-- sometimes they go away and don't come back for so long it's worth leaving them. Misses on statics are never good, but calling them is the first step.

[Flyin40]

Swingers are an exception-- sometimes they go away and don't come back for so long it's worth leaving them.  Misses on statics are never good, but calling them is the first step.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree 100%, it wasn' worth waiting, you can see the times, you tell who waited and who didn't.

I also agree that calling your shots are an important first step which I still haven't figured out completely. I think this will one of those things that you will never

stop improving on. It seems even if your a GM your visual awareness can always improve. I think this is one of those things that I must work out for myself. Everyone can tell me how to read the sights and what to look for but I must go through trial and error. I think I'll be working on this for a lifetime.

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

I found this in a thread whille looking for things on calling the shot

Look Here

and found this

Flyin40

Thread was lost before the conversion.

New Tips

Pat Harrison:

You've done it again, the new tips posting on your main webpage is the best writing I've ever seen on the topics of Stance, Index, Fundamentals, Calling Shots and Control/Abandon. Wow, got some new stuff to consider.

Along the same thread I'd like to add that most shooters get so wrapped up in doing everything techincally "correct", when sometimes you have to experiment to find your limits. I was teaching a class the other day and two of the better shooters shot initial Bill drills in the mid to high three's. After a bit of explanation about sight picture, the relationship of sight alignment to target, and letting them just cut loose and fire 6 shots into the backstop with only the idea of firing as fast as possible, they both cut over a second off their times. The problem was they were "aiming" too much!

Next time you are on the range try this, start with a target at 7 yds (move it back after you are comfortable and try it at all distances). Now place the front sight on the target, centered in the A zone, and align the sights. Fire a three to five shot group. Now repeat this but instead, place the front sight center on the target and the rear sight so that the top of the rear blade is aligned with the bottom of the front sight blade. The shots will go high, fire a 3-5 shot group and note the location. Do not patch during this drill. Now repeat with the top of the front sight right at the bottom of the rear sight notch. This is tricky to accomplich as the front sight will be hidden, get the front sight located center then drift it down 'til the blade levels out at the bottom of the notch. Now shoot another group. Repeat again with the front sight blade to the left, align the left edge of the front sight with the right edge of the rear notch, again the front blade will be hidden but align it by locating the front blade on the target and drifting the rear 'til it covers front, and fire a group. Do it again to the left. Right side of front blade to left side of rear notch.

When you are done you will have five groups on the target. Look at their relationship to each other. This will give you an idea of how to read the sights even if they are not "perfectly" aligned. Just see how misaligning the sight affects your hits. It is important to keep the front sight located on the center of the target for all of these shots. Take your time, you will likely have to shift your vision around a little more than usual to keep the front sight located on the center of the target while moving the rear around.

After getting used to this drill, move back, see how far you can move the front sight off center of the rear notch and still maintain C or better hits at any distance. You will discover what you need to see to get your hits at any distance.

Pat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[vluc]

Now this is what I call a great thread! It's exactly the conversation I had with the folks I shot with last Sunday on a stage where I pushed it big time. 6 or 8 turtle targets lined up in a nice row, no-shoots on either end. One on each, reload, one on each, reload, one on each.

Fantastic time, lots of misses, but what I learned!!! Wasn't worried about where I placed, if I would win the stage, etc. It was about learning something new, learning what I can and can't do so I can improve. My goals are not your goals, are not her goals, are not his goals.

There are some local matches I shoot that I use exactly for that purpose. What can I learn, what can I push. That determines what I focus on at a practice. How do you know what you can or can't do unless you are willing to push it in the environment itself?

[Steve Anderson]

If you want to womp on shooters below your class shoot fast.

If you want to beat other shooters in your class shoot points.

If you want to get better, do both.

Kyle is right...try to forget about your time and shoot the stage.

There is nothing you can do at LAMR to be faster than you are at that moment.

There is only one thing you can do at LAMR: Decide what's important. You will get precisely what's REALLY important to you, at your current subconscious skill level.

Also, overanalyzing individual stages can be detrimental to self-image.

Kathy, if you get in your head that you're slow, that can set you back months or years. btw, what does Dave say about all this...he's scary good.

John, if you get in your head that you're fast, that can be just as bad.

You complain about your slow draw a lot...why don't you fix that?

Our own Kyle Farris is a good example of this. When he just shoots, he's as good as ANYBODY. His technical skills are RIGHT THERE.

He suffers, at times, from the same malady as me. He wants it too bad to wait for it.

In summary, any conscious control of speed is troublesome. If you want to control something, make it sight picture. That's far more helpful.

We will all learn, at some point, that we can shoot A's faster than we can spray bullets. Is that enlightenment?

SA

[Shooter Grrl]

Not antagnizing but still don't you think that a mininum A/C or 7 points dropped, on every target is "not too much to ask for"?

Your HF at the same time would be 8.89 100% win

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There were 8 Targets - I shot all a's on all but 2 of them... the swingers were a d,d and a c,d! I don't think that's all that bad points wise!

Kathy, if you get in your head that you're slow, that can set you back months or years. btw, what does Dave say about all this...he's scary good.

Dave couldn't help me with the math portion of this problem! He too wants to know the answer

Shooter Grrl you stepped back and I stepped forward and shot the stage. I think that was the biggest difference. I had a better view from up front. I already had my gameplan prior to you shooting, I didn't change anything.

I stood still - never took a single step. Shame on you for not noticing that - you probably could have picked up another .5 second right there!

[Flyin40]

I was standing right there, you moved back. I remember it distinctly. If it wasn't a step then it was one heck of a lean.

Then again you would remember better than me. I only watched the very beginning of your stage, that was the only part I really watched. I was getting ready to shot but I swear you moved back.

You guys going to Rayners this weekend???

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

John, if you get in your head that you're fast, that can be just as bad.

You complain about your slow draw a lot...why don't you fix that?

SA

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It only can hurt if I get in my head that "I need to go fast" or "try to go fast". Knowing and understanding is key.

The Draw........... I used to focus on it constantly and work on it constantly. I just have things that are more important that I need to work on than the draw. I work on it in dryfire but not in live fire. I have only lived fired 3 times since May. This hurts me I know but with a newborn my time is taken up right now. I do what I can. If I could find a range to shoot at night after the children are sleeping I would hardly post, I would be shooting .

Back to the draw, for me right now I know I can hit sub second draws in the A zone on closer targets but until I can do it everyshot I won't do it. That first target is extremely important(all are important). You can blow that first target and you know how that goes and what can happen mentally. For me my draw is not whats going to affect the outcome of the match very much compared to some other things I do or don't do.

I'm being cautious more than anything.

Flyin40

[benos]

easy to become confused and doubt what "should be" (your best interest in mind) your personal goal when you justify your performance by comparing yourself to a sub-par performance...

be

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's downright spooky BE - that is EXACTLY what I'm dealing with. I'm shooting the best I ever have and I am still not "good enough".

Also, how can a stage win be a "sub-par" performance? The dichotomy of that exact statement is what is blowing me away this week

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Performance" and "winning" may or may not have anything to do with each other.

I can shoot poorly and win, or shoot my best and lose. Or I can shoot poorly and lose, or shoot great and win. Once I realized the truth of that - that's there absolutely nothing useful to be gained by being overly concerned with any four of those comparisons - I stopped caring about winning or losing and focused all my efforts on improving my performance.

That's not to deny that some people motivate themselves to improve by comparing themselves to others. (There's been some good discussions on that.) Just be careful not to over emphasize winning, at the expense of performance.

be