another dropped gun question

[blasterboy]

Read a few posts on dropped guns, this one is a little different.  Witnessed this last fall at our level II provincials within my squad:

1.  Competitor shoots a stage, no problems.

2.  Competitor patiently waits for range commands by RO and follows them. (removes mag, unloads round from chamber...........click)

3.  Competitor places gun in holster.  (ghost holster with no muzzle support)

4.  The moment the competitor removes his hand from the gun, the gun falls on the ground.

 

The competitor thought he was safe, the RO cleared the gun (again) gave it back and closely watched him holster the gun.  The RO then informs the competitor that he's been DQed.  After a lengthy discussion, the call stood and it was explained that until a gun is successfully holstered, the coarse of fire hasn't been completed.  He dropped a gun during a coarse of fire - DQ.

 

This is IPSC.

 

Thoughts?

[aandabooks]

Sounds right.  I had the same thing happen at a local.  RO gave me a break as it was my first match actually using a race holster.

[toothandnail]

Course of fire is over at the USC command, and the gun is declared safe.

As a MD I would overturn that DQ.

 

[ChuckS]

The IPSC rule: (2017 rulebook)

 

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

 

 

ETA: Just for reference,here is the USPSA rule:

 

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

Edited February 11, 2018 by ChuckS

[MikeBurgess]

Course of fire is over at the USC command, and the gun is declared safe.
As a MD I would overturn that DQ.
 

Not correct
The course of fire is over at the range is clear command.
8.3.8
"Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc




Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[BlueBulletBeaker]

If the RO gave the 'Range is Clear' command it is not a DQ. If the gun fell during the course of fire, prior to the 'Range is Clear' command, it is a DQ. In this case, it sounds like the RO made the right call. 

[toothandnail]

10 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not correct
The course of fire is over at the range is clear command.
8.3.8
"Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

We don't use the 87.4.78.983-81l:tr.7,sub paragraph L section 47D rule book.

As soon as the firearms are seen to be safe (clear) the "Range is Clear" command is given, Usually about .25 seconds after the "pistol, rifle, SG, Clear" is given.

If it's not safe at that time, it won't be any "safer" 1 second later.

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

We don't use the 87.4.78.983-81l:tr.7,sub paragraph L section 47D rule book.

As soon as the firearms are seen to be safe (clear) the "Range is Clear" command is given, Usually about .25 seconds after the "pistol, rifle, SG, Clear" is given.

If it's not safe at that time, it won't be any "safer" 1 second later.

 

Looks to be an IPSC handgun match, so probably should use IPSC handgun rules

[toothandnail]

12 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Looks to be an IPSC handgun match, so probably should use IPSC handgun rules

By all means, you have to follow whatever ruleset you chose to shoot under. And don't argue when you get a DQ, whether blatantly obvious, a miniscule technicality, or somewhere in between. 

I choose differently

[ChuckS]

21 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Looks to be an IPSC handgun match, so probably should use IPSC handgun rules

And that would be why I posted the IPSC rule above The end of the COF is over when " competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun ". The only point to argue here is if the gun was "holstered" briefly, then fell.

Edited February 11, 2018 by ChuckS

[RJH]

Chuck, I don't  know some (much) of  the IPSC rules,  but giving what you posted, do they not give the "Range is Clear" command? 

[ChuckS]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

Chuck, I don't  know some (much) of  the IPSC rules,  but giving what you posted, do they not give the "Range is Clear" command? 

They do issue the RIC but the COF ends when the gun is "holstered".

 

Here is the IPSC version:

 

8.3.8 "Range Is Clear" – Competitors or Match Personnel must not move forward of, or away from, the firing line or final shooting location until this declaration is given by the Range Officer. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

 

 

ETA: USPSA used to do the same thing up to 2004. When the IPSC and the USPSA rulebooks diverged, the end of the COF for USPSA moved to the RIC. That was in the 2008 rulebook.

Edited February 11, 2018 by ChuckS

[RJH]

Thanks, those subtle differences are interesting.  I have never shot an IPSC match, but if I do, I will have to give their rulebook a thorough going over

[ChuckS]

Just now, RJH said:

Thanks, those subtle differences are interesting.  I have never shot an IPSC match, but if I do, I will have to give their rulebook a thorough going over

I thought I may shoot an IPSC match or two but it has never happened. But we have many folks here who do both and the rules sometimes get confused. There are differences. I think there is a current thread here on the subject.

[Larry White]

delete

Edited February 11, 2018 by Larry White

[DKorn]

If this had been under USPSA rules, the course of fire isn’t over until the “Range is clear” command is given. If I’m ROing, I won’t give that command until the gun is holstered and the shooter removes their hand from the gun. Therefore, I would agree with the DQ. 

 

However, this was under IPSC rules, which I have no knowledge of.