Girlfriend's Medical Snafu Was Scarey,

[Heath]

If a corporation is truly negligent and causes damages, then I don't see any reason in my libertarian world-view why they shouldn't be liable for those damages. Assess the damages accurately and fairly and then seek a settlement for that amount. While they certainly provide a valuable service, hospitals generally aren't altruistic organizations. I don't see any moral implications that suggest that they shouldn't be financially liable for their negligence.

Like many others, I am displeased by the litigious nature of our society. I don't see this as a behavioral problem necessarilly, but more of an issue with the laws that are on the books. People are always going to try and game the system. Laws and rules that mitigate the negative effects of that behavior is the solution to that problem.

[warpspeed]

The entire reason for asking for a lot of money is to make it very painful for the hospital to allow mistakes. If the hospital sees that making a mistake only costs them a letter and a few $'s, the administrators will not make any changes. so the next person will come in and get the same diagnosis as your GF and maybe they won't be so lucky. Ask yourself, how would you feel if by not trying to make it as financially painful as possible so that they make a procedural change and that next person dies?

A hospital is no different than any other business. Don't treat them like they are.

[EricW]

The first part may be hard: find an honest lawyer who wants to get paid a fair wage and make a real difference in the world. You may have to travel abroad to find this person.

2nd part: Threaten to sue the hospital for some ungodly sum of money. They will attempt to counter and settle.

3rd part: Reply to their counter offer with the following:

- Cover all true legal expenses

- Written apology, published in newspaper which includes:

1) Explanation of how events transpired

2) Written plan for corrective action

3) Commitment to follow up in 6 months to make sure that the problem is fixed.

Make them deal with their procedural issues for a change, instead of just throwing money at the victims.

[davidwiz]

- Written apology, published in newspaper which includes:

That might be wishful thinking. The hosptial's attorneys will never sign off on it (the newspaper part). It would invite every scum-sucking PI lawyer to come out of the woodwork and make a run at the hospital b/c they (the scum-sucking maggots) would view it as an admission of liability. The other parts I think are do-able.

I must appologize for any offense I might have caused to any maggots. I didn't mean to offend by comparing you to a PI lawyer.

[rubberneck]

The entire reason for asking for a lot of money is to make it very  painful for the hospital to allow mistakes.

If you are going to stand on your soap box you might want to actaully understand how the medical business works. Those settlements don't come out of the hospitals pockets directly. Hospitals have insurance that covers malpractice. You threaten suit and the insurance company steps in and settles. It then passes the cost of that loss off amongst its pool of insured in the form of higher premiums. When the insurance company raises rates it hits every hospital and every doctor that they cover. That in turn gets passed along to the consumer, in this case more often than not Joe 6 pack is the guy that really gets hit the hardest. This isn't a zero sum game. If it were hospitals would be going out of business left and right. You pay the tab even if you chose to believe you don't. So trying to make it painful for them only results in making it more painful for yourself.

If the hospital sees that making a mistake only costs them a letter and a few $'s, the administrators will not make any changes. so the next person will come in and get the same diagnosis as your GF and maybe they won't be so lucky. Ask yourself, how would you feel if by not trying to make it as financially painful as possible so that they make a procedural change and that next person dies?

Somehow I get the feeling that you have fallen for the propaganda coming from trail lawyers. You know how many hundreds of thousands of documents that have to be moved through your average Hospital every year? Every CAT-Scan, MRI, blood test, every medical chart passes through multiple hands and at any point one simple error could cause a case like this.

Every hospital has safeguards to prevent what happened to this young lady but like everything else humans touch there will bound to be failures, despite every human effort to prevent them. Considering the amount of information that gets processed by hospitals every year mistakes like this are remarkably rare. It doesn't change the fact that it sucks when it happens but your expectations aren't realistic. Even the finest Hospitals and Medical schools in the country screw up. Making them pay through the nose doesn't ensure that mistakes will never happen again it only ensures higher medical costs for all of us.

Maybe you're independently wealthy but I am not. I pay $1000 a month for health insurance for the family. 4 years ago it was $680. I don't know what the heck I am going to do 4 or 5 years down the road.

A hospital is no different than any other business. Don't treat them like they are.

Oh really? I can live without the latest products from IBM, Microsoft, STI, SVI or any other business. While I certianly will miss the creature comforts they provide I still can live happily without them if forced to. I can't however live very long if I get sick and I can't afford the hospital tab. The sad thing is the health insurance "crisis" in this country is almost entirely self inflicted.

[al503]

I must appologize for any offense I might have caused to any maggots.  I didn't mean to offend by comparing you to a PI lawyer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hopefully, no one will ever t-bone your car (or otherwise hurt you and/or your family). What'll you do if you find yourself unable to work and provide for your family do to someone else's fault? Not trying to flame but just wondering?

[GuildSF4]

What about the following: tell the hospital that your gf is fine, she needs no money, but she'd like them to (financially) take care of the pour sould with advanced lung cancer whose films got mixed with your gf's ones.

At least something good could come out of this story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like Lucas answer.

I think people in general are too ready to sue, they obiously couldn't have caused their own problems.

Glad your GF is OK.

[Rob Boudrie]

Oh really? I can live without the latest products from IBM, Microsoft, STI, SVI or any other business. While I certianly will miss the creature comforts they provide I still can live happily without them if forced to. I can't however live very long if I get sick and I can't afford the hospital tab. The sad thing is the health insurance "crisis" in this country is almost entirely self inflicted.

Medicine is a business like no other.

IBM, Microsoft, STI and SVI do not have a federal policy which prohibits the universities and training schools who teach people to be engineers, gunsmiths and machinists from adding any more openings to their classes unless the engineers or gunsmith's union has agreed to authorize such an increase. The AMA controls the number of seats permitted in medical school, with full employment for MD's being a stated goal (to keep the quality up). A medical school is not free to simply hire some more board certified physicians as professors, build some more labs, obtain more cadavers and graduatd a few extra MD's.

IBM/Microsoft/SVI/STI do not get away with charging the end user considerably more (I've seen multiples of over 5x) to end users who do not have a third party making payment for them.

Medicine is one of the very few services which gets to charge for "effort" rather than "results". Just imagine if a mechanic said "I spend 5 hours working on your car, but was unable to fix the problem. You owe me $400 for my labor in doing so." Doctors get to bill even if the patient dies on the table.

Not all of this is necessarily wrong (particularly the last point), however, medical practice plays by an entirely different set of rules - sometimes because of the unique nature of what they do, and some because of the strength of their union.

[XRe]

That in turn gets passed along to the consumer, in this case more often than not Joe 6 pack is the guy that really gets hit the hardest.

Amen - Any increase is business cost is almost always passed on to the end consumer - materials costs, taxes, law suits, etc. Every frivolous lawsuit that occurs == more money out of *your* pocket, not that of the business. Every new tax == more tax for *you*, not the business....

Medicine is one of the very few services which gets to charge for "effort" rather than "results".  Just imagine if a mechanic said "I spend 5 hours working on your car, but was unable to fix the problem.  You owe me $400 for my labor in doing so."  Doctors get to bill even if the patient dies on the table.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mechanics *don't* do that?? How about the ol' "gee, we replaced 15 parts and finally fixed it, here's the bill for 12 hours of labor, plus the 15 parts we swapped...."??? The only difference is that you sign paperwork going into the hospital that *says* they get to bill your family if you die on the table....

[davidwiz]

Hopefully, no one will ever t-bone your car (or otherwise hurt you and/or your family).  What'll you do if you find yourself unable to work and provide for your family do to someone else's fault?  Not trying to flame but just wondering?

I'm an attorney, my father is an attorney, one of my sisters is an attorney, and her husband is an attorney. And, no, we don't do PI and we all find that they give the rest of us a bad name.

[rtr]

Healthcare would be a lot better if people paid for it like anything else they buy.

Having a third party payer for every $100 doctor visit, etc. is just stupid.

[Rob Boudrie]

Mechanics *don't* do that?? How about the ol' "gee, we replaced 15 parts and finally fixed it, here's the bill for 12 hours of labor, plus the 15 parts we swapped...."??? The only difference is that you sign paperwork going into the hospital that *says* they get to bill your family if you die on the table....

Even so, mechanics don't get away with "I tried to fix the problem but failed. You now need to pay my bill for the effort I spent solving trying to solve your problem".

It's popular to bill for diagnosis separately, however, if the problem is correctly diagnosed, that service has been performed. Mechanics don't get away with "I could not figure out what was wrong, but here's my charge for trying."

[XRe]

It's popular to bill for diagnosis separately, however, if the problem is correctly diagnosed, that service has been performed.  Mechanics don't get away with "I could not figure out what was wrong, but here's my charge for trying."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First - I agree that medicine is a business like any other

I have to disagree somewhat on this, though - at least in my experience, I've been billed for unsuccessful diagnosis attempts in the past (granted, by a frickin' VW dealer - did I mention I hate VW/Audi??). They charge an hourly rate for "diagnosis", even if they find no problems. I've managed to argue for a free second diagnosis attempt when the problem returned - but that's a different story. We could go round in circles on this - suffice it to say that, my point is - doctors aren't the only ones who get to charge for their time with no problem resolution, or (fatal) improper diagnosis. It's easier to fight it w/ non-medical issues, and they generally aren't life and death. That doesn't stop it from happening, though.

[mpolans]

- Written apology, published in newspaper which includes:

That might be wishful thinking. The hosptial's attorneys will never sign off on it (the newspaper part). It would invite every scum-sucking PI lawyer to come out of the woodwork and make a run at the hospital b/c they (the scum-sucking maggots) would view it as an admission of liability. The other parts I think are do-able.

I must appologize for any offense I might have caused to any maggots. I didn't mean to offend by comparing you to a PI lawyer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oops...you reversed the Ps and Is again.

[Chills1994]

I think Bill O'Reilly and others have suggested a good solution for our litigious society.

Loser pays!

That's right if you file a lawsuit and lose, you have to pay the other guy's legal bills, etc.

The girlfriend saw a lawyer on Friday. No word yet on an amount.

Did run the "have them admit it in the newspaper" comment past her. She was like "No way would they ever do that. It would be a lot easier and cheaper in the long run for them to pay me x amount."

[warpspeed]

I'd forgotten all about this thread and came back to it because Chills1994 posted so I thought maybe we had some update/closure only to find a reply to my post by some ASSHAT named "rubberneck" :

The entire reason for asking for a lot of money is to make it very  painful for the hospital to allow mistakes.

If you are going to stand on your soap box you might want to actaully understand how the medical business works. Those settlements don't come out of the hospitals pockets directly. Hospitals have insurance that covers malpractice. You threaten suit and the insurance company steps in and settles. It then passes the cost of that loss off amongst its pool of insured in the form of higher premiums. When the insurance company raises rates it hits every hospital and every doctor that they cover. That in turn gets passed along to the consumer, in this case more often than not Joe 6 pack is the guy that really gets hit the hardest. This isn't a zero sum game. If it were hospitals would be going out of business left and right. You pay the tab even if you chose to believe you don't. So trying to make it painful for them only results in making it more painful for yourself.

If the hospital sees that making a mistake only costs them a letter and a few $'s, the administrators will not make any changes. so the next person will come in and get the same diagnosis as your GF and maybe they won't be so lucky. Ask yourself, how would you feel if by not trying to make it as financially painful as possible so that they make a procedural change and that next person dies?

Somehow I get the feeling that you have fallen for the propaganda coming from trail lawyers. You know how many hundreds of thousands of documents that have to be moved through your average Hospital every year? Every CAT-Scan, MRI, blood test, every medical chart passes through multiple hands and at any point one simple error could cause a case like this.

Every hospital has safeguards to prevent what happened to this young lady but like everything else humans touch there will bound to be failures, despite every human effort to prevent them. Considering the amount of information that gets processed by hospitals every year mistakes like this are remarkably rare. It doesn't change the fact that it sucks when it happens but your expectations aren't realistic. Even the finest Hospitals and Medical schools in the country screw up. Making them pay through the nose doesn't ensure that mistakes will never happen again it only

ensures higher medical costs for all of us.

Maybe you're independently wealthy but I am not. I pay $1000 a month for health insurance for the family. 4 years ago it was $680. I don't know what the heck I am going to do 4 or 5 years down the road.

A hospital is no different than any other business. Don't treat them like they are.

Oh really? I can live without the latest products from IBM, Microsoft, STI, SVI or any other business. While I certianly will miss the creature comforts they provide I still can live happily without them if forced to. I can't however live very long if I get sick and I can't afford the hospital tab. The sad thing is the health insurance "crisis" in this country is almost entirely self inflicted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rubberneck, here is some advise : It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think your are an A-Hole than to open it and remove all doubt.

( And yes, you have pissed me off )

[mpolans]

I think Bill O'Reilly and others have suggested a good solution for our litigious society.

Loser pays!

That's right if you file a lawsuit and lose, you have to pay the other guy's legal bills, etc.

The girlfriend saw a lawyer on Friday.  No word yet on an amount.

Did run the "have them admit it in the newspaper" comment past her.  She was like "No way would they ever do that.  It would be a lot easier and cheaper in the long run for them to pay me x amount."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem with the loser pays system is that it really screws the little guy. One of the nice things about our system here is, if the little guy gets hurt and has a pretty good claim, he can hire an attorney that will work on contingency who will pay all the filing fees, expert fees, and work for nothing up front. A poor person who could never dream of affording an attorney at an hourly rate can actually seek justice.

In a loser pays system, it's a lot easier for a company or person with money to bully someone who can't afford to fight back.

I guess it's easy for Reilly to shout things like "loser pays," because it makes a nice sound bite..."short and pithy," is his thing. But the reality is, things aren't always that simple.

[Rob Boudrie]

Did run the "have them admit it in the newspaper" comment past her.  She was like "No way would they ever do that.  It would be a lot easier and cheaper in the long run for them to pay me x amount."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Besides, what's a third of a newspaper ad If it's really about getting the word out, and not collecting money, you can do that on your own but... I'll bet the hospital will insist on a confidentiality clause in any settlement, and that your attorney will argue in favor of accepting it along with your 2/3 of the cash.

I'm convinced that a partial solution would be for the insurance companies to vigorously defend against bogus claims (like the one where a driver sued me, and collected from my insurance for a back injury sustained prior to the automobile accident which the police explicitly determined was not my fault - it seems that the injury he suffered from for years was miraculously cured just prior to the accident).

Few things are as scary to an attorney as the prospect of working a contingency fee case without getting paid. If insurance companies would defend bogus cases, plaintiffs would have no trouble getting representation for legitimate cases, but could find it hard to get contingency fee counsel for the "bogus but collectable" cases. I remember the attorney in my case told me, correctly, the there is no way plaintiff's counsel would let it go to trial since it was the kind of case where there was the very real chance of losing.