smokshwn Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Jake Out of curiosity what reliability issues have you experienced? I apologize if I am sounding like somewhat of a 9mm nazi but my own experience simply nullifies many of the concerns that I was warned about. A local Open GM who was very opposed to 9mm shot my gun and had to admit that it was not anything like what he had experienced or heard aboutof the 9's or the shorties. So I think it is like Paul and RTR are saying. If the gun is built and set up correctly for 9mm (shameless plug for Dan Bedell) then the differences between the two calibers is non existent. It just becomes much cheaper to shoot 9. Take care, Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpty1 Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 I echo what "rtr" said. The reliability of the major 9 in either a short or long gun is no longer an issue. Look at the top 16 in this years Area 1 and 6 matches. 20 and 25% respectively were using Hardy custom guns in 9mm. That's a shameless plug for Joey, and I only throw that out because I don't know what number of guns Dan, Derek, or Bob had in there, but there were some. I'm anxious to see what happens in a couple of weeks at the nationals. There should be enough 9s out there to find one to test fire. I would hate to see someone spend the bucks for an open gun in any configuration or caliber based on someone else's opinion. I don't care who that someone is. I do understand if you can't find one to test fire, then a decision has to be based on something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazos Custom Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Reliability is not the reason I said I don't think it is the best setup right now. Two things I do see are pressure and performance. J.L.'s load with SP2 powder is the only one that I have seen in the 9mm that was not running a huge amount of pressure. If we had powders about the same speed as SP2 that would fit in the case we would be in good shape. All things held the same if you tell me that a load at 7.5 gr of a faster powder works as good as a load of 9.5 gr of a slower powder then since you don't have as much powder (gas) the only way you can be working the comp the same is with pressure - 20 to 30 percent more. Excessive pressure equals shorter barrel life and shorter life for the gun in general - there is no way around that. I am seeing 9mm loads recommended with charge weights for loads that are 30-40% over the maximum charge listed in the loading manuals. That makes me nervous. Especially with the wide variation in case volume for 9mm. If you can use your load in 9mm with no flattened primers, no long firing pin, and you can reload your cases 20-30 times without case failure or loose primer pockets then you aren't running excessive pressure. I can do that with the loads that I am using for 38 super. If you can't then you might want to have the load pressure tested to see exactly what you are working with. Saami specs are there for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Reliability is not the reason I said I don't think it is the best setup right now. Two things I do see are pressure and performance. J.L.'s load with SP2 powder is the only one that I have seen in the 9mm that was not running a huge amount of pressure. If we had powders about the same speed as SP2 that would fit in the case we would be in good shape. All things held the same if you tell me that a load at 7.5 gr of a faster powder works as good as a load of 9.5 gr of a slower powder then since you don't have as much powder (gas) the only way you can be working the comp the same is with pressure - 20 to 30 percent more. Excessive pressure equals shorter barrel life and shorter life for the gun in general - there is no way around that. I am seeing 9mm loads recommended with charge weights for loads that are 30-40% over the maximum charge listed in the loading manuals. That makes me nervous. Especially with the wide variation in case volume for 9mm. If you can use your load in 9mm with no flattened primers, no long firing pin, and you can reload your cases 20-30 times without case failure or loose primer pockets then you aren't running excessive pressure. I can do that with the loads that I am using for 38 super. If you can't then you might want to have the load pressure tested to see exactly what you are working with. Saami specs are there for a reason. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A voice of reason.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam B Posted July 12, 2005 Author Share Posted July 12, 2005 Well I decided on a 38 SC, seems to be the more logical and safest option! Thanks for all the advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpty1 Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Admittedly, SAAMI specs have never entered my mind in any of my posts or discussions about major 9. I use once fired brass in every match I shoot, majors included. Since that stuff is so cheap, if I pick up my brass, it is to clean up the range, not so I can reload it. I do use brass of a single headstamp for consistency purposes, since as stated earlier, there is a wide variation in case capacity, extractor groove and other dimensions among the different 9mm brass manufacturers. The single headstamp brass approach allows the gun to be tuned specifically for a particular type of brass which probably can't hurt from a reliability standpoint. I figure shooting a 9mm today is no different than shooting a 38 Super when the minimum major PF floor was 175. Granted, the PF was lowered for a reason, but we shot for years at a 175 PF floor. Now that I remember, there were even a few nuts shooting, (maybe trying is a better word), 9x19 major even then. That's why the rules were modified to state 9x19 could not be used for major. I do recall seeing some of that brass. Primers blown out, flattened, and flowing back into the firing pin hole. Didn't want no part of that. Even with the lowered PF floor now, I don't see parts or guns being broken more frequently by the 9mm shooters than those shooting 38s or long 9s (21,23, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 does anyone know how many times one can reload 9mm major? using sp2? or 3n37? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newguy Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 After some frustration and fine-tuning, I finally got my 9mm to eject consistently. Brazos's tuned ejector made the difference. But, after about 15,000 or so rounds my STI barrel went south. It stopped grouping and the velocity went to hell. A new Schuemann barrel brought everything up to snuff, but I'm concerned why I got so little life out of the original barrel. I'm beginning to think that Bob may be right that the high pressure generated by the 9mm prematurely wears out a barrel. I'd be interested in hearing how many rounds others have gotten out of their 9mm barrels. BTW, the math about how much cheaper the 9mm is compared to the .38 Super is a little skewed since it assumes that .38 brass isn't recyled. If you shoot 2 lost brass matches a month at 130 rounds a match you've lost 260 cases or the equivalent of $26, a paltry amount given the overall costs of IPSC shooting. With that said, if my new barrel goes south I'll shift to the to .38 super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Point of reference: The SAAMI pressure spec for .38 Super +P is 36,500 psi. The SAAMI pressure spec for 9mm +P is 38,500 psi. There are obviously many more variables, but if Leatham is making major with the WW Ranger +P stuff (which is undoubtedly under that 38,500 psi threshold), that shows you can do it without a "huge amount of pressure." Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Mike, The 9mm that Leatham is using to make major is actually +P+. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 I would like to hear from the gun builders about the life span of barrels with 9mm major. I am getting ready to convert my gun to 9 major with an STI S2 barrel and comp using 125 Zero's and 3n37. Mr. Bedell? Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEDELLCUSTOM Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 there are no reliability issues related to 9mm or 38 super as long as the setup of the gun itself and the magazines are tuned properly. the biggest difference between the 2 is that if you are using STI tubes for 9mm, you will more than likely need spacers in them to get them to run 100% reliably. i have gotten some 9mm guns to run without spacers but for best results you will probably need them or simply use SVI tubes,no spacers required. there are alot of people shooting the 9mm guns now and almost 50% of the open guns we are currently building are 9mm. when shooting the 2 different cartridges side by side, there is no performance difference or reliability difference if the guns are setup the same way. the only real benefit to 9mm is the cost of the brass. so if you are tired of picking up brass and spending upwards of $100 per thousand, then go to 9mm. i've been shooting 9mm myself for 2 years now and very pleased with it's performance. you may not be able to use as many different powders for 9mm simply because of it's case capacity but there are plenty of great bullet and powder combinations available so it really is not an issue. there are alot more manufacturers of 9mm brass and i suggest to stay with the better quality brass, (winchester,federal,speer,remington,starline), the reason i say this is some of the lower quality brass varies in it's dimensions which may have an affect on your pressures going up or down causing primer flow and or bulged cases. as we all know, the better you monitor your loads and control the standardization of you components,the more consistent your ammo will be and the more reliable your gun will run. most builders will tell you the same thing, as long as the gun is built and tuned properly, most of the problems that people experience with a gun of any caliber or cartridge type can be related directly to improperly loaded or poor quality ammunition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.L. Hardy Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Newguy, What powder were you using? Back in the days of 175 pf it was not unusual for a barrels life to be less than 15000 rounds when used with the faster, higher flame temp, abrasive powders. When I started my 9mm project the first thing I did was contact the barrel manufacturer of the barrels that I was using at the time and seek his advise on acceptable powders for the small case capacity open guns like the 9x19 and 9x21. According to our lengthy discussion the powder which is designed specifically for small case capacity open class ipsc style guns is VV 3n38. In the same conversation he stated that another powder had the same burn rate and cool flame temp, but it was hard to get, that powder turned out to be SP2. I happened to have an eight pound jug at the time that I hadn't even tried. I tried it and liked it enough to expend the effort to find a source for a quantity that will keep me shooting for a long time. Hopefully until they start importing it again. I also shot alot of 3n38 through my guns and it performs very well and the case will hold more than enough to even make the old PF. The thing I hear most often is that 3n38 is expensive. When I compare the per round loading cost the difference in 3n38 and the cheaper powders is insignificant at most. The difference in brass costs between 9mm and 38 supercomp is significant though. As for reloading the brass, I have reloaded pieces of brass 5 times and saw no signs of stress. As far as performance of the two calibers: The least you could expect is that you could tell no difference in the two when shot in two guns set up exactly the same way. I have performed this comparision and in the guns I have, I absolutly could not tell the difference. Now that is not to say that others design would not show some small differences. If a gun uses longer barrels and longer comps then the powder volume can make a difference in efficiency. With the shorter guns the porting, whether its porting in the barrel or in the comp, is closer to the powder charge and is just as efficient as a longer gun with more powder. The other thing I realized was that in the same exact setup the 9x19 tended to use 1 grain less of the same powder than the 38 supercomp. Understand that I'm not trying to say that any of the fine guns that are available from other members here would be any less suitable for any given shooter than one of the others. This is just the same type of debate that went on over the suitability of 40 S&W for limited guns which has proven over time to be the dominant choice for serious shooters. I have also heard that 9mm is more difficult to reload. I personally have not found this to be the case. If you are a reloader who practices normal standard procedures while reloading then there is no difference in what caliber you reload. Another thing to note is that 9x19 has always been allowed in open division. The previous requirement was that it be loaded to 38 super lengths. This required a longer bullet to get enough of the bullet in the case for it to hold on to. The suitable bullets for this were in the 147 grain range and the lighter, faster bullets just proved to be more popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEDELLCUSTOM Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 cameron, most of the problems pertaining to shortening barrel life are caused by certain powders that have too fast of a burn rate for that particular bullet/powder combination or ammo that is loaded to a point far exceeding safe pressures. i have not found any more significant wear in a 9mm chambered barrel as compared to a 38 super chambered barrels with all comparing factors being the same. i will not dispute the fact that there are some loads that will increase barrel wear and thus shorten barrel life but to be able to tell you what the absoulte best 9mm load would be for every gun out there would be impossible because of all the different gun setups on the market. there are many variations in barrel manufacturers dimensions that consist of twist rate, length, type of rifling, and the types of steels and differences in their hardness which all contribute to how the barrel wears.you also must take into consideration, has the gun been put together properly so all the parts can function together properly and safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Thanks to all the smith's offering this insight. Based on the info all of you provided, I will still follow the 9mm path. If it just will not work fo me, I will just put the super barrel back in! Maybe we can just sell the LE community on 38 supercomp? Then we can have $10/1000 brass in that also!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 yeah i want glock to make a 9X23 or a 38 super and sell a butt-load of them to all the police agencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Scientist Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I must agree with J.L. Working with 9 major as the only caliber in a glock open blaster. ther are a mirid of powders that will make major. I think if you presure tested loads for some 115 grn super loads using 10 grns of powder as is a trend as of late you will find presures aproching 50,000 psi well above published loads. I have seen 9 loads that I thought were not what I would want to run in my guns but you will see the same in super. bottom line aproach 9 major with common sense using powder and bullet combinations that are recomended by the gun smith . If ther ever was any one person that knows what he talking about from practicle exsperience and not from here say or theory it would be J.L I shoot with him regularly and lots of guys around here have his guns. I personaly dont as I have aproched the 9 major with a diferent platform.I have personaly used 38 supper, super comp ,9x23 ,9x21 and am now using 9x19 all have served very well IF set up properly. I realy cant tell any diference in performance in any one case. so for me it all came down to cost and viability in my platform. I realy am glad that uspsa made the move as it greatly increasd the choices of platforms competing in open . Johnnie besides I havent been able to stuf a 38 super case in a Glock magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 So I want to build a super how do I fit them in my Glock mag???? LOL Johnnie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Start with a G20 then ....----.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 However he recommended 38 SuperComp as the better caliber for what we have today. A friend just went through getting a new Open gun built and quite a few experienced (read Top 20) GM's said to build it in 38 SuperComp as well. How are you going to mark your brass?... so I can identify it easier and reduce my cost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 How are you going to mark your brass?... so I can identify it easier and reduce my cost... I'll just put a big "S" on them to make it easy. LOL. I did buy one of Nolan's Brass Master case marking tools to try to keep up with these expensive cases. We'll see how well it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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