Professional Class?

[Jake Di Vita]

After all this discussion my mind has not been changed....I just wanna shoot.

[Chriss Grube]

Jeff,

It actually goes back to when I was a c class shooter. I'd go to a big match kick some guys butt and get called a sandbagger. Sorry but I could shoot at that level hung out or hung over on demand not just when I got lucky or practiced the same COF over and over until I got a good one. M and GM are supposed to mean something under the current system you have to be good but the system can be exploited. I just feel that too many paper hangers are using it just to sell guns, parts or training.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Chriss is just mad because he doesn't shoot classifiers well.

He's tired of hanging around with Master class shooters and being told, "I have the script right here and I don't see where it says 'A class shooter speaks', SHUT-UP-YOU!"

[Ron Ankeny]

I'd be perfectly happy to trash the whole system and shoot heads up.

Me too. The problem is the same in most shooting sports. Shooters want a crack at a win against shooters of supposedly similar ability. The masses don't want to donate to a "prize" they don't have a chance at winning, including intangible prizes like bragging rights.

If you happen to shoot some classifiers that suit your strength it will happen without intent.

This is in reference to becoming a GM.

Anyone who has mastered the fundamentals required to "simply shoot" from Box A and who can also keep their poop in a group for 3-8 seconds will eventually get a GM card if they shoot a lot of local matches. I have never understood why folks get all torn down when someone who doesn't meet their expectations burns a few classifiers to the ground and ends up with an M or GM card in their wallet. We all know how the classification system works. I have heard many people propose the idea of M and GM shooters earning their precious little cards as a result of major match performance. But those who want to wallow in mediocrity can "earn" their C, B, and A cards in Podunk? Screw that, let's just have a huge bonfire fueled by classification cards.

BTW, John is right. If we are going to classify shooters, anyone who can shoot M or GM scores on classifiers certainly doesn't belong in A class. Think about it.

[Fossil]

Another vote to trash the whole system and shoot heads up.

We can dream, but it will never happen, USPSA will not kill the cash cow, just imagine, no more $5000 bonus and salary increases for the "Good Old Boys" club.

[Chriss Grube]

George,

IF OR WHEN you beat me at a big match YOU can speak until then I'm the director!

[GeorgeInNePa]

George,

IF OR WHEN you beat me at a big match YOU can speak until then I'm the director!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Little Big Match '05

SHUT-UP-YOU

[glock17w]

It seems like a lot whining going on. Just shoot. Continue to practice, get better, move up in classification. If you have reached your limitations at a specific class then so be it. Some people are better at things than others are. Just a fact of life.

Keep learning and keep practicing. strive to be the best and when you make M or GM then you will not worry about separating GM from the rest of the shooters.

Just my .02 after this thread.

[Jake Di Vita]

when you make M or GM then you will not worry about separating GM from the rest of the shooters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably the most sensible comment in this thread.

Just freakin shoot....everything else will work itself out.

[Sterling White]

More on the calcutta. Info from a buddy who shoots trap tournaments up and down the east coast.

He says that the at the beginning of the auction a wild card is auctioned off to the highest bid. The winner of the wild card gets to select any shooter. In the case of our sport a wild card could be sold for each division.

Here's an example how this would work:

Before the match begins an auction would be held. The top-guns for each division would be auctioned off. Any shooter could enter the calcutta. If the shooter was not sold then that person would own themselves with the entry of $25.

auctioned shooters & selling price (for example!):

Mike Seeklander $250

Phil Strader $250

Matthew Trout $250

Douglas Bryant Chaffin $250

Emanuel Bragg $251

Estuardo Gomez $250

Erik Lund $249

Kert A. Gaskill $250

Taran Butler $250

Travis Tomasie $250

Michael Voigt $250

Blake Miguez $250

Shannon Smith $250

Yong Lee $250

Chuck Bradley $250

________________

Pot $3750

Winner of the calcutta is paid $1875

2nd place finish is paid $1125

3rd place finish is paid $$750

Buyer(s) keeps 60% and shooter receives 40%

Here's the kicker......lets say an unknown shooter enters the calcutta. The unknown pays the $25 and no one bids. Self owned, has a glorious match, and places 1st. That person wins the 1st place money.

So, anyone could purchase the top-gun. Even a group could go in together and purchase the top-gun.

Erik, just pikn on ya bro

[vincent]

I think there are enough classes and sub-categories in USPSA already.

I don't know if I see the Area 1 match GM attendance as an issue with the structure of the sport. Seems like more of a scheduling issue. That being the case I think it would be better to spend time thinking of how major matches can be better scheduled within USPSA.

[BigDave]

If you pay them, they will come.

If you pay them, they will come.

If you pay them, they will come.

[blackwolf]

I can't read all the posts in the thread.

Proclass seems reasonable to me though.

Charge the pros more so they have a chance to win some cash. Currently they don't have that chance (that's my impression) so I could see how some would jump on that bandwagon.

Who cares about "fake" GM's. If they think their good enough they'll pony up. Otherwise they're out and we'd know it.

Doesn't sound like many pros are making a lot of dough anyhow so what could be wrong with incentivizing the process? The shooter would be making the choice to spend more. If it didn't work, then rules of capitalism would once again prevail.

BW

[TDean]

Sorry to offend anyone, but the whole idea of the precieved winners "paying more" is f'ing stupid. Stop it already. Thanks,

GMW2B,

I'm really liking the calcutta idea.

"...Self owned, has a glorious match, and places 1st. That person wins the 1st place money..."

That's beautiful! Where do I sign up?

[Sterling White]

Erik, sorry about the thread drift but think its along the same path.

ZH sent me the following info, in italics, yesterday with a thumbs up to post it!

Calcuttas - love them hate them , more so towards the hate them side. I have participated in way too many of them to date, hell, I even purchased myself for $2700 at the Midwest Open billard tourny only to lose my first two matches and go home broke and depressed.

In the example you showed, there are a few things I don't like. First would be the timeframe. Calcutta's aren't the fastest thing in the world to happen, and what do you do about the people that aren't shooting until Sunday...are they just screwed or do they have to show up early and spend for another night (or 3) at the hotel so they don't miss out on the calcutta?

Good point - timeframe would be an issue since people like to shoot and run. Need not be present to win would be an option.

The shooter should never be obligated to purchase themselves. All that will lead to is resentment and anger towards a forced expendature of money. Generally the way this works, is that if a shooter is purchased who wants to purchase themselves, the buyer is obligated to sell 50% to the shooter (without a rate hike...I'm sorry Robbie, how much is your stock worth).

No obligations for anyone but you gotta pay to play. If a person decides to get into the calcutta then $25 hits the table. See the previous explanation.

The start of a calcutta should really have 2-4 blind bids. That is where the real money is generated, by the "fever" of people trying to get the 1st bid or the 2nd bid etc....After the 4 blind bids are done, they get their choice over anyone in the field. Then you sell off the remaining superstars, then all the rest of the shooters are bundled into cute little groups that will hopefull sell for far more than what they are worth....(what is a B, C and 7 D class shooters worth...do i hear 10 dollars???)

If your not in the running for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd then your better off owning those who are.

Would this be practical for practical (lol - I kill myself sometimes)shooting ...probably not, but it would be practical for an event like nationals where everyone is there at the same time, etc....

Nationals or an Area would work.

If you think there is any interest in this information in the thread, feel free to post it.......I hope your day was better than mine.....

ZH

[Bear1142]

Sterling,

I like it. Talk about match pressure. How about when your "owner" comes up to you before a big stage and says, " I've got $500 ridin' on you, don't F*** this up!"

And on another note, OUCH! Well that actually sums up my season so far, a dollar short and a second slower. Maybe the 3-gun season will be kinder to me.

Erik

[Qstick]

Good point - timeframe would be an issue since people like to shoot and run.  Need not be present to win would be an option.

You don't have to be present to win, but you do have to be present to bid (before the event starts)

No obligations for anyone but you gotta pay to play.  If a person decides to get into the calcutta then $25 hits the table.

You really need all shooters in the calcutta pool and have them all purchased, even of some are VERY cheap. That is where the value comes in for winning the calcutta - dead money. Let's face it, for the majority of shooters, we have no chance of winning an Area match, but for all of us that pluck down a few dollars on ourselves, we are adding to the pool for those that win.

[alma]

This is starting to sound like horse racing...

[Alan Meek]

My thoughts are on line with alma, looks like a betting line on the shooters.

In my opinion, if you want a pro class that would mean a shooter that is paid to practice/train and shoot.

While we have some exceptional shooters that can be considered pro, when they have to teach to make their living then I do not think that consitutes as professional class. (this is kinda a cludgy paragraph, so don't read into it to far)

Take a look at all other "Pro" sports, they are paid to practice and play their respective sport. they have an offseason where they do not have to teach their sport to earn income.

Just my .01 1/2 cents cause I ain't a pro

Alan

[JFD]

I was drinking heavily at the 19th hole of my inlaws country club in Charleston and there was a major calcutta bidding war going on for the next day's start of the Masters. This was years ago and I remember Fred Couples going for $57,000. Total purse ended up over $250,000. Those folks were serious about golf.

I don't see big money for USPSA. We're a fringe sport and we don't exactly have Ford or Chevy lining up as sponsors. Focusing on increasing membership and media/public acceptance would be a far better road to take. Get those things taken care of and there would be more money available. If we get corporate sponsorship who are willing to pay pros, then it would be time to talk about a Pro class. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

[Cameron]

To be a pro shooter in USPSA, one must join the armed services, or start beating TGO by 10% at Nationals.

[Sterling White]

Coorporate sponsorship and the calcutta have little to do with one another!

[Ron Ankeny]

I have participated in calcuttas in trap, coyote calling contests, walleye tournaments, etc. They are indeed a great way to build a huge pot of money. The most successful calcutta is one where there are a lot of potential winners.

The biggest problem I have seen with a calcutta is the issue of sandbagging if the calcutta is used in conjunction with a class system. This is especially true in trap. If clacuttas became popular in USPSA with big money paid back in all classes, sandbagging would become a way of life.

[Sterling White]

Erik,

Talk about match pressure. How about when your "owner" comes up to you before a big stage and says, " I've got $500 ridin' on you, don't F*** this up!" 

.... yea especially if Todd J. is the owner!

Like clockwork, everytime I shoot with him something is whispered in my ear and poooooof ....... first words outta my mouth are those uttered by Cartman - goddammit!

[Mike H]

while I agree that Calcutta's may encourage sandbagging, a tweak of the rules to make match placement more indicative of shooter ability/classification would eliminate some of the problem.

Second, in alot of the calcuttas for various shogunnning events-lpigeon shoots and the like, you make $$ by betting on the big names and splitting the proceeds with the shooter, and it gives people the ability to actually make a living from the endeavor.

Alot of dog field trials are setup in the same manner.

Personally, I think anytime you have the opportunity to make more money in an event it draws more attendance, which means the sport grows.

And with the cost of this sport, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have the opportunty to bet on oneself or another shooter to enhance the competition with the chance of actually winning back some $$$ and covering some costs, or buying more stuff.