CalTeacher Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 So, as a MD I'm getting a lot of pissed off people voicing their outrage that our club will be running 10 round divisions as of 7/1/2017 in compliance with Prop 63. Here's the rule that I cite: 3.3.1 In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match Here's where things get weird. Some clubs say they won't comply (I don't see that language in the rulebook that allows for that), and one person emailed Mike Foley and got this response: Thanks for writing us. To date, no proposal to change any USPSA rules or policies is on the table. I personally have met with many competitors and match directors from California in person over the past couple of years, and more so in the past few weeks. USPSA has a rule that allows the match director to set capacity limits to comply with state laws, but it is solely his discretion. Match directors know the political and enforcement conditions of their areas. My intention is to continue to allow MD's to decide what is best, until collectively, the entire CA membership asks us to do otherwise. This doesn't seem to be in agreement with the rule I quoted above. As a match director, I don't enforce CA laws. I merely enforce USPSA rules. Has there been a statement issued somewhere by NROI that provides more clarification on this so that I can provide more concrete support for limiting capacity to 10 rounds in all divisions? I appreciate all your responses and advice in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 I'll admit ignorance on CA gun laws, since I never plan living there. Are shooters with grandfathered hi-cap mags pissed because they won't be able to use them as they are? Seems FUBAR to expect hi-cap mags to compete with 10 rd. mags in the same division. Are some MD's saying "screw the law, shoot what you got?" I see the rules as you do. But rules interpretation seems "fluid" at the moment from those that make them, so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 10, 2017 Author Share Posted May 10, 2017 Well, CA law will prohibit mere possession of hi cap mags after 7/1. There's no such thing as a grandfathered mag after that date. Thus, we'll have to enforce 3.3.1. From what I hear, some MD's are saying that, but I see no leeway in the rules as written to make such a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixsomd Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Could be a HUGE shift away from those divisions based on standard capacity mags. Could make for a jump in Production and SS. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Aren't there other states that limit magazine capacity? MA? How do they handle it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 I believe current LEO's are exempt. I'm not sure if you can do it in practiscore but I'd see if you can create Open 10, PCC 10, etc. Since there is L10 and Production already I think those are the only two that you would need to make. Let the shooters choose their poison. I mean if you just say the whole club will be 10 rds... you are restricting LEO's from using their duty mags. Which club is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackCage Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, Religious Shooter said: I believe current LEO's are exempt. I'm not sure if you can do it in practiscore but I'd see if you can create Open 10, PCC 10, etc. Since there is L10 and Production already I think those are the only two that you would need to make. Let the shooters choose their poison. I mean if you just say the whole club will be 10 rds... you are restricting LEO's from using their duty mags. Which club is this? My club says that while LEO are still allowed to possess +10 rd mags come July, they cannot use them in competition (unless they download them to 10 rd). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Yup. One of my local clubs has said that. They are semi-USPSA. I don't know what the other 5+ local clubs are planning. I'd guess they would need to make a CO 10 too. If they choose the "new" divisions fix for this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 10, 2017 Author Share Posted May 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, Religious Shooter said: I believe current LEO's are exempt. I'm not sure if you can do it in practiscore but I'd see if you can create Open 10, PCC 10, etc. Since there is L10 and Production already I think those are the only two that you would need to make. Let the shooters choose their poison. I mean if you just say the whole club will be 10 rds... you are restricting LEO's from using their duty mags. Which club is this? USPSA doesn't mention cops being exempt from the rules. I think creating additional divisions would make no sense. There's no division called Open 10. Open would just be restricted to 10 rounds. This brings up another issue, though...do we eliminate limited or L10 since having both would be redundant? 5 Dogs Action Shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Well it's your choice. Be sure to offer your membership the new divisions solution. And FYI... the WEGC 3G director has said 10 round only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 Wouldn't offering divisions like Open 10 cause issues with classifier submissions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 And you know there is precedent for having LEO's be different. I don't know if it is still in the books but drop-down holsters were OK to be used if it was their duty gear. Couldn't use them for regular people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Just now, CalTeacher said: Wouldn't offering divisions like Open 10 cause issues with classifier submissions? Probably. I guess you can hash it out with the Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Religious Shooter said: And you know there is precedent for having LEO's be different. I don't know if it is still in the books but drop-down holsters were OK to be used if it was their duty gear. Couldn't use them for regular people. I see no mention of that in 3.3.1 Edited May 11, 2017 by CalTeacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 The wording over years and the section may have changed. But see 5.2.8. I'm just saying that LEOs have been given and are given leeway in terms of equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 5.2.8 Competitors deemed by the Match Director to be full-time law enforcement officers with arrest powers or military personnel on current active duty orders, may be entitled to use their duty holsters or similar holster and related equipment when such equipment does not strictly satisfy the equipment or other requirements of the declared Division. The Range Master will remain the final authority in respect of the safety and suitability of using such equipment at USPSA matches. The use of such equipment, except as otherwise permitted in the rules, is restricted to Level I matches only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 Is a hi cap mag a piece of related equipment in regards to holsters? I think that's a stretch. I understand where you're coming from and I've fielded questions about this at our matches already, but cops will be restricted too unless I am given a good reason to change the policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Well then there you go. 5 Dogs will be all ten round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 At my club basically all divisions will be restricted to 10 rounds during competition. As far as classifiers go, very few require more than 10 rounds prior to a reload. The MD will not be putting on any of the classifiers that require more than 10 rounds prior to a reload. It is really going to suck for the PCC guys having to reload 3-4 times a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 3.3.1 specifically rules out any special group from loading more than the legal amt if the law limits it for the masses. Foley said the rule is not changing. LEOs can use their hicaps, but can't load more than 10 in CA this July and future. Unless the lawsuit works! Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 Ok, here's a secondary question: Should clubs do away with Limited 10 due to redundancy? I've been talking with a few other members of our club and there are different viewpoints on this. We can either A. Allow shooters the choice of shooting Limited or Limited 10 because they may want to keep or build a classification, or B. Only allow shooters to shoot Limited for the match and shoot Limited 10 for an extra $3 on the classifier (and only on the classifier). What are other clubs doing, and do we have to offer redundant divisions for people to shoot the entire match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, CalTeacher said: ...Should clubs do away with Limited 10 due to redundancy? I've been talking with a few other members of our club and there are different viewpoints on this. We can either A. Allow shooters the choice of shooting Limited or Limited 10 because they may want to keep or build a classification, or B. Only allow shooters to shoot Limited for the match and shoot Limited 10 for an extra $3 on the classifier (and only on the classifier). What are other clubs doing, and do we have to offer redundant divisions for people to shoot the entire match? Seeing that Practiscore does everything for you, what difference does it make? It is not any extra effort on the part of the MD to have Limited and Limited 10 except the extra classifier if people want to shoot it once per division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 28 minutes ago, CalTeacher said: Should clubs do away with Limited 10 due to redundancy? I thought the primary rationale of L10 was so that shooters in capacity-limited locations could have a division available nationwide that they could shoot using their "home" gear. In other words, make sure that CA or MA shooters could shoot a match in GA or AZ using their "normal" gear and not be at a disadvantage. You restrictive-law guys are (almost) the whole reason we have L10! If you guys stop using it, then there truly will be no reason for it to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 1 hour ago, tanks said: Seeing that Practiscore does everything for you, what difference does it make? It is not any extra effort on the part of the MD to have Limited and Limited 10 except the extra classifier if people want to shoot it once per division. Because they are the same division now in CA. For our local matches it really won't be that big of a deal, but when we run larger matches with trophies it will be something we have to get ironed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 1 hour ago, ATLDave said: I thought the primary rationale of L10 was so that shooters in capacity-limited locations could have a division available nationwide that they could shoot using their "home" gear. In other words, make sure that CA or MA shooters could shoot a match in GA or AZ using their "normal" gear and not be at a disadvantage. You restrictive-law guys are (almost) the whole reason we have L10! If you guys stop using it, then there truly will be no reason for it to exist. I get that, but it'll be a redundant division in California. I'm talking about how we will run matches here in CA. I can totally see the reason for keeping this division for matches outside CA where CA shooters want to shoot their 10 round mags in L10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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