Scoring While Shooting

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm not OK with not seeing all my hits.

Everybody has made a mistake or two scoring.  If my score gets fouled up, I want to be the one that is responsible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you OK with paying a higher match fee because fewer people can fit into a squad, or with being told a match is "full" when use the delegate procedure would allow an extra 1-2 people in a squad, and get you a slot?

There is a cost and a benefit to this procedure, and one has to look at both sides of the equation.

[Jake Di Vita]

Then what should be done is each shooter should be asked before they start if they want to be present while their hits are being scored.

If they do...they have that right and I really don't think any extra 25 seconds per shooter who wants to see their hits on the target is going to be as big a deal as you make it sound?

I could be wrong, if I am please explain.

[Rob Boudrie]

Assume a match with 10 stages of 8 shooters each.

Adding 25 seconds to the clearing time of each shooter is a 33 minute delay, or an hour delay over the course of the day assuming an AM and PM squad.

If the delay per shooter is really a minute instead of 25 seconds, which is more realistic on a long field course, the delay becomes 80 minutes or 2 hours and 40 minutes with an AM and PM squad.

What is important:

- Shooters know ahead of time if they will need a delegate to check hits

- Noshoots and M targets are held for the shooter to personally examine their target

[Flexmoney]

I'm not OK with not seeing all my hits.

Everybody has made a mistake or two scoring.  If my score gets fouled up, I want to be the one that is responsible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you OK with paying a higher match fee because fewer people can fit into a squad, or with being told a match is "full" when use the delegate procedure would allow an extra 1-2 people in a squad, and get you a slot?

There is a cost and a benefit to this procedure, and one has to look at both sides of the equation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no problem staying home and not going.

Do you have a problem with finding and staffing an EXTRA Range Officer to work the stage(s)...because the number two RO is now back at the targets calling them (before the cof is complete), instead of up with the action...assisting the RO (where they should be)?

While it is true that...if you have a ten person squad and you can save 30 seconds per shooter, you have gained 5 minutes. The reality is that, USPSA suggests 5 minutes be alloted per shooter...I usually plan for 4 minutes per shooter...and, we actually turn shooters in about 3 minutes.

A big part of all this is stage design. One thing I like to tweak in design in how the stage will get scored (the path taken by the RO at the end of the COF) That requires a little more work on the design end, for sure.

Anyway...the question that started this thread asked if we are OK with it. I'm not.

I can give two quick examples of why...from last years Nationals (where I placed well enough to take a nice prize off the table).

- On one stage, the RO called one of my targets with two Charlies. They were actually two Deltas. I caught that and got it corrected. Would my delegate have done so? Would my delegate have the knowledge of what I saw through my sights. How about the delegate that wants to "take it easy" on his buddy. (Or, in this case, the guy that would have been my delegate had just shot and bombed the crap out of this stage...he's got other things on his mind besides my shooting.)

- Also at the Nationals. I am the last shooter on the last squad of the day...on a fairly big (spread out) course. These targets were scored by the RO at one end, calling the hits to the other end. The shooter wasn't present...and no delegate was mentioned. (I had forgot about all those details until just now.) So, I get done shooting, targets get called from all over. I sign my score sheet. Half my squad is over the hill, on their way to their cars. The stage crew has started to pull targets for the day. I look at my score sheet as I walk back toward my range bucket. I realize there is a mistake on my sheet. I grab the CRO, point out the no-shoot that I hit..

Bottom line is, the scoresheet is the shooters responsibility. I want to be the one that has the responsibilty for my sheet..good or bad.

[George]

I'm with Flex and Jake as far as big matches go. Big money, big concerns, 30 extra seconds to do it by the book, no big deal. The second RO not doing his main job is my biggest concern here.

This practice has it's place. Most notably in IMG 3 gun matches where the paper scoring concerns are a little lower and maybe at the USPSA club level. It does save time if utilized properly, it just needs to be realized that it is a bending of the rules.

--

Regards,

[markm]

We score behind the shooter at all the matches down here. Everyone knows the policy, we talk about it before the first stage, and we have one of our buddies assigned to follow the RO scoring. If there is any question about a hit, mike, NS, ect. , that target is passed for the shooter to come look at.

It helps when you are a small squad and when you have a big squad. If a shooter insists on seeing all of his hits, then we accommodate their wishes and go back to our regular routine.

I know that my shooting buddies all have the same thought process when it comes to scoring as I do. I will point out discrepencies good and bad, and so will they. Most of us are in the same class and division, we shoot to win, but win fair.

[Flexmoney]

I know that my shooting buddies all have the same thought process when it comes to scoring as I do.  I will point out discrepencies good and bad, and so will they.  Most of us are in the same class and division, we shoot to win, but win fair.

For me, it isn't about intentions or integrity. It is more about responsibility...and asking my buddy to shoulder mine.

It's the same as loading my magazines (or ammo). I load my own. That way, if something goes wrong...my buddy doesn't have to feel that it was/might have been their fault.

[markm]

The final score sheet is the shooters responsibility. I am not asking my buddy to shoulder my responsibility, but to help the RO's, the squad, and the match to move along. If there is no question, no big deal, if there is, the shooter is called and is present for the call. If I know that I hit a NS and it's not counted, its taken care of before the sheet is signed, just like you did. For 95% of the shooters on every stage there are no questions, so life goes on. When the temp is 100 with 110% humidity, every delay adds up by the end of the day. We can agree to disagree.

[Jake Di Vita]

My view is take the extra hour per day and do it right.

The shooter's score is the shooter's responsibility....not the RO's, not the delegates, not even the stats officer. I want to make sure the score written down is the score I shot...good or bad.

Using Kyle's example....if he had 2 C's instead of 2 D's...it would have moved him up 4 places in the overall standings....at the nationals. Is saving an hour really worth that to all the shooters it affected? I think not.

[Flexmoney]

Mark,

I'm not looking to agree or disagree with you. I am just discussing the issue and giving my perspective. I only quoted your post as it fit my talking point.

I was hoping to point out that there are other issues to this besides trust in the RO's, trust fellow shooters, and raw match speed.

[BSeevers]

I have seen quite a few challenged(probably 1/3 or so) Alpha Charlie turned into 2 Alpha by a more experienced RM or RO. I think in a big match I want to see my target since this can mean a lot to the match results.

[Ron Ankeny]

At a major (for the area) match last year one of the range staff shot through my squad with a staff RO (one person) scoring behind him. They signed the score card, then off to the next stage. When we went forward to tape, there was a no-shoot with two holes in it and another with one hole. The no-shoots were being used as vision barriers. Myself and a friend (I am 6'4" and my buddy is pushing 6'5") had chosen to shoot over the no-shoots. The staff guy saw us do that (he is about 5'10") and he too shot over the no-shoots with an open gun. You guessed it, because the optic is above the bore line he nailed the first NS twice and the second one once.

Everyone on our squad knew the danger of hitting the no-shoot, but the guy with the clipboard didn't even bother to check any of the no-shoots that were scattered around the COF. The competitor went on to win his class. Of course 3 mikes and 3 no shoots would have changed the outcome dramatically. There are several lessons to be learned from the event. The most important lessons are obviously scoring related.

Now to answer the question directly. I have no problem with shooters taping behind me at club level matches. I don't even need a representative. At large matches, scoring should be an intregal part of course design. With rare exception, there really shouldn't be any need to score behind a competitor. If you do need to score behind a competitor, a representative should be present if requested and there should be two people scoring the target. One to call the hits and another to repeat the score as it is recorded. As George noted, who's helping the guy with the timer by watching for foot faults, the 180, number of shots fired, range failures?

[Rob Boudrie]

The rules appear to be ambiguous about the ability of a match to require a delegate to check the targets for a shooter:

9.6.1 After the Range Officer has declared “Range is Clear”, the competitor

or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official

responsible for scoring to verify the scoring.

On one hand, this means that the RO has met the requirement of 9.6.1 if he has permitted the shooter or delegate to check the target scoring. But, there is no statement in the rules requiring the shooter to have a delegate - so, if no delegate exists, there is no requirement in the rules that the shooter appoint one, so the only way the RO could comply with 9.6.1 would be to let the shooter check scoring personally.

What becomes more interesting is the terms of challanges to scoring. Suppose a shooter does not affirmatively state "Joe is my delegate", and the RO allows targets to be taped because someone is following watching. This goes on for 5 stages or so, and then the shooter challanges a score. When asked about the "delegate", the response "he's not my delegate - I never appointed him - I want a reshoot." What would you do as the RO?

[Tom Balko]

If the RO is doing his job he shouldn't be following up and scoring targets, he should be right next to the CRO and keeping track of the shooter, hits, faults, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm in agreement with AzShooter. I took my RO class from Arnie C. a year or two ago and it was quite clear from him what the duties of the RO should be while a stage is being shot, and it wasn't scoring targets. The CRO has enough to do watching the gun, without having to watch for foot faults, hard cover shots that still hit a target etc etc. Don't get me wrong, I understand it happening at club level matches. But level II and above, I can see people getting a little more picky. Maybe it's gaming for a reshoot, but just maybe it's important enough, and the shooter believes strong enough, that a mistake was made to make an issue of it. It doesn't really take THAT much longer, does it?

[Caspian_45]

Then what should be done is each shooter should be asked before they start if they want to be present while their hits are being scored.

If they do...they have that right and I really don't think any extra 25 seconds per shooter who wants to see their hits on the target is going to be as big a deal as you make it sound?

I could be wrong, if I am please explain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are not entirely wrong, but there are some stages that take more time to reset than others.

I do not want to be rushed through a stage. I will know if I have any questionable tagrets that I will want to check before scoring is complete. If the stage is running on time I don't see the staff or shooters gaining a lot buy scoring on the run. There will be exceptions..............

[markm]

When we score while shooting, we have 1 RO on the timer, 1 watching feet, hands, ect, and the 3rd with the clip board. We always have 2 RO's with the shooter.

Not every course of fire lends its self to this approach, but it seems to be a useful tool when you have a long field course.

[BDH]

Guys/Gals/Friends/Romans/Countrymen,

WOW! Great dialog!! A couple of comments/clarifications to keep things on track....

First, remember how I started this..... 'I was surprised at the end of the stage when the RO said "I've scored all but the back targets" (and people were pasting behind him).... I thought 'crap, this is a problem as the shooter was denied an opportunity to examine his/her targets, and now I have a re-shoot coming.....'

Second, there was the comment that 'we do that all the time down here'. I thought that maybe I hadn't gotten out much but checked the rulebook and 9.6.2 clearly supports this (9.6.2..... however, "Competitors must be advised of this procedure during the squad briefing"). Based on the rulebook, I started announcing it during the walkthru, and asking if 'anyone had a problem with this?' Even the Super Squad said 'no problem, let's keep things moving' (although, a few did send delegates along). If anyone would have objected, I would have run things normally ('normally' is probably the wrong word.... I am just saying that we would have shifted to scoring from the back to the front so the shooter could see every target).

XRe/AzShooter, and others have pointed out 'very valid concerns' and problems with this approach and I am simply soliticiting feedback, so please don't shoot the messenger! Just looking for the dialog.....

ps. you didn't hear this from me, but I was told that Area 4 normally does this too.....

pps. we did have enough staff to watch everything that needed watching, while still scoring effectively.....

[vluc]

I've seen this at select stages at local matches, but the RO always asks if anyone has a problem with doing it beforehand. I have no problem with it there.

I would not be too keen on it at major matches...

[gmshtr]

I've never had a problem with it. I actually had a miss & no-shoot on Brian's stage at the Area 6 that I didn't get to see, but it was no big deal. I would've liked to have seen it, not to confirm whether the RO was correct, but to figure out what I did wrong and should've done different. If you've got someone you can trust to walk with the RO, then it's no big deal, IMHO. It definitely saves time.

[Storm]

I don't like it, especially a major match. Why?

1. I want to verify whether I called my shots correctly.

2. On several occasions, I've had RO's at major matches call Alpha/Delta on a target that I had a make-up shot on and really had 2 Alpha & a Delta on it. If I'm gonna take my time to make up that Delta, I want my extra 3 or 4 points.

3. If I shot near the perforation & I truly think I have a higher scoring hit than the RO, I'd like to be able to ask the RO to overlay it. I've actually only had this happen once or twice though. Most RO's will overlay it if it's close or just give you the higher point value.

4. I don't buy the higher match fee argument. By the time I pay for airfare, hotel & rental car, a slightly higher match fee is a rounding error.