Stock2 trigger job just not working out

[Sniperboy]

Sorry for the rant, but I just wanted to let out some steam guys.  It seems like I’m being punished lately.  The guys at my local club did say that my Glocks were going to get jealous and together in the middle of the night to put a curse on my Tanfoglio.  They may have been right. >: O

Long story short here is my stock config, seller said it was in stock condition when sold to me:
I have a large frame Stock 2 (verified serial number on EAA site).
Started out with 11lb+ DA & 5lb SA

Hey no problem I expected that…

I put the Henning basic kit on it.  Basically 13 lb Wolff spring, light plunger, recoil spring and guide rod & everyone’s favourite Henning firing pin : ).
Resulted in 9.5lb DA & 4lb SA
This was using the stock hammer, disconnector & 2 piece sear.  I did a polish on all the parts as suggested here, none on the frame to get this pull.

OK that is good, I put 500 rounds of CCI reloads through it with not many problems.  Had one or two light strikes now that I recall.  Some failure to feeds (which seemed like double feeds since the topmost round in the magazine were half way out when I pulled the mag out to clear the malfunction.  I can chamfer the bottom of breech face next time to deal with that later.

Then this is where it gets really quirky.  I put in the Xtreme 1 piece sear (safety is still OK and did not need refitting, I tried the Xtreme because I got a good deal on it).  My dry fire pulls varied wildly after this.  From 10lb to 11+ lbs DA but my SA improved to 3.75lbs.

Originally I was going to go with a minimal upgrade with no fancy parts, just polish and spring...and made an exception for the 1 piece sear, but being frustrated at not being able to break the 10lb DA wall, I decided to go “all in” I bought all the PDO parts to make my Tanfo gourmet.

Just tried to install the PDO purchased parts (TITAN included) one part at a time before dry fire yesterday.. no polishing for now and did not install the BOLO yet.  I did polish the hammer strut channel.  My thumb safety does not work after install of the TITAN hammer.. which is expected.

The dry fire is now a wild 11lb to12lb (over limit) DA and the SA is now magically 4lb 14oz - worse than stock.
The config used for this testing was a 12lb PDO spring, TITAN hammer, stock plunger spring, reduced power sear spring , stock trigger return spring.  I left the (non functioning) stock firing pin block in there and have NOT fit the non functioning safety that was deactivated by the TITAN hammer.  You have to admit this is strange and while I may not have as good a polish as MM, JohnBu and ARy, I don't think another round of polish will drop it 5 pounds : O.  Something is definitely wrong here.  Checking the innards I can not find any dried cursed chicken blood.

Just to appease the voices in my head - thinking that the not-yet-fit thumb safety was somehow binding/slowing down the sear, I put in the stock hammer with same polished stock disconnector and strut which clears the thumb safety.  No change!

Anyways just venting here I am sorry to clutter the forum.  I have disassembled the pistol one or two times and honestly believe I put everything together right including the springs.  I am still thinking in an Australian accent as a result. : )

I think the WEAKEST LINK is that there is a very hard resistance just at the end of the DA travel just before the break that is making the trigger weight climb very high as if its hanging up on something.  This is why no matter what springs I put on it, the pull is not changing.  
I’ll work on it - just needed to get it off my chest : ).  Getting pretty good at this disassembling and assembling.  Not as good as JohnBu tho : )

...and yes, I do think my trigger pull scale is not broken and my eye exams prescriptions are up to date : )

Edited December 28, 2016 by Sniperboy

[Sniperboy]

This is a long rant.. ugh.. sorry about that.  Thanks for reading this far anyways : )

[waktasz]

Is your trigger bottoming out on the overtravel screw before DA breaks? 

Edited December 28, 2016 by waktasz

[bigbob21]

When I installed the titan initially, I gained prolly few ounces in DA and 6-8oz in SA...
At the time, I hadn't done a FULL polish job and still had yet to install new reduced sear spring, bolo, reduced trigger plunger spring, reduced trigger return spring, new firing pin and spring, as well as new extended firing pin block and spring...

It came down maybe 2 pounds in DA and 1 pound in SA after all that...
Started what're you are and now down in the 5.5/2.5lb area...
It'll get sorted out... polishing helps, but there's still a few more things people do to their guns to get it down...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MemphisMechanic]

My personal belief is that all of the springs combined will drop the trigger weight perhaps two pounds.

The rest of it comes from polishing. That is so much more important than most of us want to admit. My gun wasn't reliable at all before everything inside looked like chrome, partially because it rough and gritty everywhere and partially because I went too light on recoil spring.

[MemphisMechanic]

Suggestions:

1. Regarding light strikes? Mirror polish every pin hole, spring (outside AND inside), and part that moves when the shot breaks. That means everything between the hammer spring's pocket and the firing pin.

The hammer hooks, sear & cage , and trigger bar are optional to lighten your pull weights, but the previous paragraph's items are reliability issues.

2. Take the firing pin block out and leave it out until the gun runs perfectly, then consider reintroducing it as a variable. That way you're certain it isn't slowing the pin.

3. Run a 10lb or higher recoil spring until the gun is 100% reliable. I ran the factory one minus three coils once I figured out my 8 lb one was causing occasional malfunctions. The gun will eat 128pf ammo just fine with the factory spring.

4. If you get really frustrated, put all the factory springs in and shoot the damn thing and see if your Titan and single piece sear play well together.

5. If you aren't running a BOLO... get one before you keep going. It helps pull weight some but also really makes the SA trigger into something amazing.

Edited December 28, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[ryridesmotox]

First thing I would do it to remove the overtravel stop in the trigger and retest. Make sure that the trigger drops the hammer before it hits the frame... Take the skid eoff and ensure functionality (don't let the hammer drop onto the sear though it might damage the sear and cage). If your trigger pulls do not improve, then start by ensuring everything is installed correctly. It's very easy to accidentally flip a spring around or forget to put the leg down on the sear spring (after you reinstall the safety) which can cause damage to the spring and flip the leg to the rear which can effect how the gun functions, specifically the sear. Also, some of the guns have bad tolerances... Like where you install the hammer spring... That hole in the frame can be varying depths which effects pull weight and spring tension. Lastly, make sure that when you reinstall the trigger, that the bar is not rubbing the bottom of the sear cage or the inside of the frame. That's where I would start anyways. As long as everything is installed corectly, even without a polishing job, those parts should lower the pull weight of the trigger. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by ryridesmotox

[Sniperboy]

Guys thanks for lending an ear. Some people spend two grand on a nice Vegas vacation, I just did the same on a pistol that kept me busy and out of trouble. 

I use a Lyman digital scale for trigger pull. I hung a 2.5 lb weight on it and it's spot on. 

I did notice an annoying mark on my frame from the overtravel stop on my trigger but I try not to think of it cause it's annoying but I'll investigate that too. 

I have a 6lb long slide recoil spring (=8lbs in a stock 2?). It feels sluggish and I plan to put a 10lb to cure feeding. I also have a bolo but have not installed it. I put in the Titan, PDO springs one by one and tested between installs to isolate the issue.  

Definitely a weak link somewhere overpowering everything else. 

I have a laundry list to go through as far as reliability too. But MMs thread has that covered. 

 

[Sniperboy]

Ryridesmotox, I'll remove the OT stop then take it apart again. I thought about the hammer spring channel tolerances and will check that. 

Otherwise ill pay attention to the spring orientations. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Sniperboy

[ryridesmotox]

Take pictures when you are disassembling and post them here so we can see what's happening in there. 

[johnbu]

Over travel screw. First thing I thought.  Could also be the HAMMER STRUT INSTALLED BACKWARDS. highlighted for probability given the symptoms.

 

could also have pounded a burr into the trigger hole or even bent the trigger forcing the pin in.  not accusing, just going over possibilities.

Check each part individually. Trigger and bar should move easily at about 1#.  then the hammer should move fully down to ghe bevertail without any binding. The strut and disco should flop freely.  the sear should move freely under just the spring pressure.  Tough to disgnose over a screen. Sure it could be corrected quickly in person. These issues are frustrating, but usually just something silly or simple is the root cause.

 

 

On 12/28/2016 at 0:42 PM, waktasz said:

Is your trigger bottoming out on the overtravel screw before DA breaks? 

 

[haiedras]

Or just come to RRGC Saturday or Sunday and I can look at it.

[Sniperboy]

No offense taken John and all - I welcome any and all suggestions.  I definitely know what you mean.  Usually its something small and stupid that can cause problems like an incorrectly placed pin, bent or twisted spring causing issues.  I have reversed the hammer strut in the past, and found that it freezes the hammer completely.  Don’t think I reversed it this time, but I will check again.  I will check the holes and channels for burrs.

I also do not think it is the overtravel stop since the “wall” occurs a long way until the stop bottoms out.  I will take pictures of this darn Tanfango shortly.  My brothers are here for the holidays so I haven’t had much “me” time as I would like.

Will take pics.

Also, I have already been contacted by some nice fellows who offered to help a stranger.  I really appreciate that haiedras & DOODS.  I am humbled by your willingness to help a dumbass like me : ).  I will be at Richmond Rod and Gun Club (perhaps the highest per capita sightings of Tanfoglios in the area), tomorrow morning (Saturday) and hope to meet you.  But I am thinking we have already crossed paths in the past but never knew it.

If all else fails I will put all the parts in and take pics - I want to make every effort to troubleshoot before I throw my hands up out of respect for everyone here who's taken the time.  It may be the interruptor nose rubbing on the bottom of the frame as the Bolo did relieve some pressure but there was still some resistance.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Sniperboy

[Sniperboy]

So I took some pics of the setup.  In the past few days I have replaced the parts one by one (again) to isolate the problem to no real avail.  The weight did go down from 12 pounds (max limit) to now 9lbs with the stock hammer and 12lbs PDO hammer spring.  No doubt from me SCREAMING at this gosh darn Tanflango.  (or from me hammering the hammer strut pins in and out like a maniac.  Yes I was a masochist and also put in the 2-piece sear again to test.

1.  First here's the DA pull with the stock hammer, 12lb PDO hammer spring, PDO sear spring, stock plunger spring (polished plunger), one piece sear stock trigger return spring.  Parts have been polished with exception of the PDO hammer spring.

2.  Here is where the trigger stops and I hit the hard wall.  The wall is about 2 lbs. and I suspect is the issue.  The overtravel screw is not bottoming out when it hits the wall.  Correct me if I am wrong but the overtravel stop is only a mechanical stop caused by the external set screw alone right?  Nothing internal?  This was taken with the slide on.

3.  Removed the upper assembly.  Internal shot when it hits the wall.  The DA trigger pull (protecting the hammer from banging the sear cage) is identical compared to when the upper is on, so I suspect its not interference from the upper assembly.

4.  There is a polished mark on the bottom of the frame on the "runway" where the nose of the stock interruptor/disconnector runs.  Is this normal?

5.  Shot of the one piece sear in my lightly polished sear cage bottom.  PDO sear spring in there.  I believe the spring is oriented correctly.  With the ejector pointed downrange the long leg is on the right, the small leg on the left, when viewed from the top.

6.  DA pull with the Titan hammer and BOLO.  Looks like the BOLO dropped right in - thank goodness!!!  Admittedly I was a cheapskate at first and did not want to put in the TITAN and BOLO but now that I have it, I am pretty wowed by it.

7.  Finally here is the WALL with the TITAN and BOLO.  There is ample room in there before the overtravel pin hits the frame.  I tested the DA pull and the DA pull is around 6.5lbs when it hits the WALL, which is where I expect it.  But it takes about 1.5lbs to 2lbs to break the wall.  Keep in mind this is all with a 12lbs PDO hammer spring.  So am I being unreasonable with my expectations?

Edited December 30, 2016 by Sniperboy

[waktasz]

Does the plunger under the trigger bar move down freely?

Does the hammer move freely when you thumb cock it or is the wall also there? If the wall is there, how about when you thumb cock it with the gun apart and the sear cage removed?

Sort of at a loss here too but there's got to be a way to narrow down what component is causing it.

[MemphisMechanic]

What wakatasz said for sure.

Also:

Step one. Take the overtravel screw out altogether for the first 500+ rounds with the gun. Once it proves reliable? go ahead and reinstall it.

Can we get closeups of the trigger return spring and trigger pin, and the sear & sear cage, with good lighting, after removing the slide?

Edited December 30, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[ryridesmotox]

Hang on... runs to get tanfo from the truck... lemme check it out and then I'll get you some guidance. I think I have an idea

 

OK try this, Take the gun down all the way to the hammer out, remove hammer spring as well. Take a punch or something to put into the hammer spring channel. Mark the punch or your wiener or whatever apparatus you measure it with a marker and see how deep the hole is... Grumpy, I'm not being obscene about holes, I just want to see how deep his hammer spring pocket is... I don't have my calipers with me as I'm at work... Trying to find at least a ruler or something now... but I want to see how far out of spec your hammer spring pocket is.

 

Or as an alternative to measuring... count how many coils deep the pocket is. My 10 coil is exposed on a 14lbs spring.

Edited December 31, 2016 by ryridesmotox

[ryridesmotox]

Also, what way is your hammer strut facing?

[Sniperboy]

Matt, Evan & Ryan.  Thanks for hanging in there.  Both the plunger and hammer move freely from my observation.  No "walls" on those areas I can notice when I exercise these parts manually.  ARy I got a hot date with haiedras & DOODS tomorrow. : )

I tried to measure the hammer spring channel which is a challenge so my numbers are gross.  There are actually two ledges there.  One at the very surface kind of like a funnel.  (Shown by the red arrow).  This one measures .650".  There is a step beneath that (Shown by the purple arrow.)  This one measures .570" to the bottom.

Here is a pic of my hammer strut.

Evan I'll get you those close ups ASAP.  I'll remove the overtravel stop also to isolate the part.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Sniperboy

[ryridesmotox]

Only thing I would try to narrow down the issue more is to make sure everything moves feely with the slide off. Maybe try to do a few pulls with the gauge. Mine registers within a couple ounces with the slide off. You may have an interference issue with the slide or the sear cage on the trigger bar or disconnector. Maybe try to narrow that down a bit. The springs all look like they are going the same way. and I got close enough depth of the hammer spring pocket so that probably isn't it. Don't let the hammer hit the sear cage though, if you do try and see what is causing binding or pull with the gauge. Put a foam ear plug in there or something to block the hammer from falling freely

[Sniperboy]

Earlier I mentioned that the DA trigger pull was identical with the slide off but upon more careful investigation (and protecting the hammer from dropping on a topless frame) I did measure about half 6-8oz difference with the slide off.  I will observe if there is an interference with the upper.

I have also taken pics of the springs and pins.  I studied the trigger pins and I do not think there is any binding when pulling the trigger.

I'll keep on chewing on this guy.  Hopefully it can be diagnosed tomorrow when compared to other Tanfos in the wild.  In the meantime thanks for everyone's help.

[waktasz]

Take the sear out of the cage and then install all the parts into the gun as normal?  Grasping at straws here

[Sniperboy]

I'll take whatever suggestion I can Matt.  I have disassembled the sear cage a few times already, even put back the 2 piece sear and back.  I am not sweating it though.  If this mystery is not solved I will simply shoot it as is and after a few thousand rounds hopefully the gremlin that is causing this will get knocked the hell loose.

You know when 'that guy' at work comes to you and says "Hey Microsoft Word doesn't work, can you check it out?" Then it magically works when you cross your arms and watch over that guy's shoulder?  Hopefully that happens tomorrow : )

ARy I went back and forth on the Stock hammer and Titan hammer (with Bolo) a couple of times this evening, merely in the hopes to see if I could trick the gremlin to slip up and reveal itself.  

Edited December 31, 2016 by Sniperboy

[johnbu]

Did you try each element of the system individually ?  the trigger  (sear and hammer out) should move freely and easily. The plunger should not give any sticky / gritty feel.

The hammer should swing freely when you manually hook the disco to the bar.

If the pins holding trigger to bar and the ones holding strut/disco NEED to be just  under flush. Sticking out they could cause a bind.

The sear cage "shouldn't " change it much.

 

[highhope]

20 hours ago, Sniperboy said:

4.  There is a polished mark on the bottom of the frame on the "runway" where the nose of the stock interruptor/disconnector runs.  Is this normal?

 

I found this polished mark on my stock2 too, but I used a T3 disco. After I carefully polished this contact surface on both the frame and my interrupter, the DA pull weight goes about about 8oz lower. 

That's "maybe" one reason where the "very hard resistance" come from.  Correct me if I am wrong. Just definitely don't want to mislead you. 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by highhope