Load Data for a compromise round for 223 REM & 5.56

[armydad]

I have a buddy with AR-15 rifles chambered in 223 REM and 5.56. When he fires Winchester white box through them, the rifle chambered in 223 REM fails to eject the casing after 2-3 rounds and it is really stuck. I've done some research and mostly understand the difference in the rounds and rifles - and that is was not smart to shoot the higher pressure round in the 223 REM. I don't have the experience to know if there is a compromise round/load data that will fire accurately and reliably in both rifles - say out to 100 yards. He doesn't want to worry about which rounds are for which rifle; he wants them interchangeable.

I use H335 for my 5.56 loads, but from what I've seen on Hodgdon's website, this powder is not recommended for 223 REM. I'd appreciate any help and recommendations on this - even if it means installing a different barrel, etc.

Thanks!

[postalpainmaker]

I've loaded thousands of .223 rounds with h335. Works great with 55gr. I load all my Ammo to .223 REM pressures and velocity and shoot them in both my 5.56 chamber, .223 REM, and .223 wylde, with no issues. Just seem to be a little less accurate in the 5.56 chamber due to the longer throat.


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[armydad]

Roger that. Are you around 21 grains? I read an article that the pressures were measured differently between 223 REM and 5.56 so you couldn't directly compare them. I suppose I'll start low and work up. I'm using the bulk Hornady 55 gr and they've worked just fine in 5.56 loads.


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[RJH]

9 hours ago, armydad said:

I have a buddy with AR-15 rifles chambered in 223 REM and 5.56. When he fires Winchester white box through them, the rifle chambered in 223 REM fails to eject the casing after 2-3 rounds and it is really stuck. I've done some research and mostly understand the difference in the rounds and rifles - and that is was not smart to shoot the higher pressure round in the 223 REM. I don't have the experience to know if there is a compromise round/load data that will fire accurately and reliably in both rifles - say out to 100 yards. He doesn't want to worry about which rounds are for which rifle; he wants them interchangeable.

I use H335 for my 5.56 loads, but from what I've seen on Hodgdon's website, this powder is not recommended for 223 REM. I'd appreciate any help and recommendations on this - even if it means installing a different barrel, etc.

Thanks!

I went through some of these same issues and while reloading to lighter 223 levels will work, throating to 556 will be a better option in my opinion, as sometime in the middle of a match or some other time when you need a second shot, a sticky round will find its way into the chamber..  It is usually a cheap job from a gunsmith (20-50 dollars here) and then you can fire any factory ammo(223/556) if you are in a bind.  If you decide to just load down, you should be able to split the difference between a starting load and a max load in a manual and get the desired results, at least that has always worked for me, and for distances quite a bit further than 100 yards.  Good luck

[bigedp51]

10 hours ago, armydad said:

Roger that. Are you around 21 grains? I read an article that the pressures were measured differently between 223 REM and 5.56 so you couldn't directly compare them. I suppose I'll start low and work up. I'm using the bulk Hornady 55 gr and they've worked just fine in 5.56 loads.


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Both the .223 and 5.56 are loaded to 52,000 cup or 55,000 psi American SAAMI standards. The only difference between the two is throat length "BUT" I have a Savage .223 bolt action with a throat longer than my two AR15 rifles. If you fire military 5.56 ammunition in a .223 with a shorter throat the chamber pressure will be approximately 6,000 psi higher.

The shorter throat .223 rifles normally have a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist but my Savage rifle has a 1 in 9 twist and a .0566 throat. The type gas system and port pressure also has a effect on the AR15 rifles, meaning carbine, mid-length or rifle gas system.

If you look at the Hodgdon's website their load data for the .223 is for a rifle with a 1 in 12 twist and shorter throat.

5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

 

Edited December 10, 2016 by bigedp51

[Beef15]

I might be inclined to search for mechanical/gas deficiencies if you haven't.

I'm not in my manual right now, but 21gr of H335 sounds very low. My old go to plinking load and one I've read many times is 25gr with a 55gr bullet, it's moving along, but never had any issues with it in quite a few rifles.

My new favorite, economical, while more accurate and a very mild recoil for fast pairs is 21ish grains of RL10x with a 55gr FMJ, preferable Hornady.

I usually stay in the .223Rem realm, but as above, my ARs all have generous throats and can handle either.

[armydad]

Thanks everyone. You've been a great help.

[postalpainmaker]

Roger that. Are you around 21 grains? I read an article that the pressures were measured differently between 223 REM and 5.56 so you couldn't directly compare them. I suppose I'll start low and work up. I'm using the bulk Hornady 55 gr and they've worked just fine in 5.56 loads.


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[postalpainmaker]

Roger that. Are you around 21 grains? I read an article that the pressures were measured differently between 223 REM and 5.56 so you couldn't directly compare them. I suppose I'll start low and work up. I'm using the bulk Hornady 55 gr and they've worked just fine in 5.56 loads.

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22.5gr h335 under a 55gr FMJ with oal of 2.250. Works in all my chambers safely and pretty good plinker out to 200yards.

.223 rem pressure are 55,000 psi while 5.56 NATO is loaded to 60,000. Hence the longer chamber through. Great round for 1/12 twist and ok for 1/9 in my AR's but not so hot in my 1/7 twist barrels. They like the 77gr hornady.

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[armydad]

Thank you

[bigedp51]

2 hours ago, postalpainmaker said:

22.5gr h335 under a 55gr FMJ with oal of 2.250. Works in all my chambers safely and pretty good plinker out to 200yards.

.223 rem pressure are 55,000 psi while 5.56 NATO is loaded to 60,000. Hence the longer chamber through. Great round for 1/12 twist and ok for 1/9 in my AR's but not so hot in my 1/7 twist barrels. They like the 77gr hornady.

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Both the .223 and 5.56 are loaded to 55,000 psi measured at the mid point of the case SAAMI standards. European CIP NATO pressure standards are measured at the case mouth. 52,000 cup, 55,000 psi and 60,000 CIP NATO psi are all the same pressure measured three different ways.

 

Below are the American SAAMI pressure standards for 5.56 chamber pressure. (55,000 psi transducer method) The throat is the only differences and the SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223/5.56 did not come out until 1979 when the military adopted the M855 round and lengthen the throat.  Meaning if a M855 round is fired in a short throated .223 the chamber pressure will be 6,000 psi higher.

Below on the left is a .223 .0250 throat and on the right is a 5.56 .0500 throat and the throat on my factory Savage .223 is .0566

Meaning the only difference is throat length the cartridge was tested in for its chamber pressure. Look in the reloading manuals at the rifles twist rate, the problem rifles are the ones with a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist with a short throat.

0566on

Edited December 10, 2016 by bigedp51

[postalpainmaker]

Both the .223 and 5.56 are loaded to 55,000 psi measured at the mid point of the case SAAMI standards. European CIP NATO pressure standards are measured at the case mouth. 52,000 cup, 55,000 psi and 60,000 CIP NATO psi are all the same pressure measured three different ways.

 

Below are the American SAAMI pressure standards for 5.56 chamber pressure. (55,000 psi transducer method) The throat is the only differences and the SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223/5.56 did not come out until 1979 when the military adopted the M855 round and lengthen the throat.  Meaning if a M855 round is fired in a short throated .223 the chamber pressure will be 6,000 psi higher.



Below on the left is a .223 .0250 throat and on the right is a 5.56 .0500 throat and the throat on my factory Savage .223 is .0566

Meaning the only difference is throat length the cartridge was tested in for its chamber pressure. Look in the reloading manuals at the rifles twist rate, the problem rifles are the ones with a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist with a short throat.

0566on

Not correct. 5.56 NATO is a hotter round Read below from Hornady 2013 manual

“5.56MM NATO

The original 55 grain bullet has been replaced over theyears and the current bullet is 62 grains. Original rifles started with 20", 1:14" andlater 1:12" twist barrels. Today, most military rifles are the shorter M4 design with a14.5" barrel with a 1:7" twist rate. The faster twist rate is important for a variety ofmilitary bullet weights from 62 to 77 grains.The main differences between the 5.56 NATO and the 223 Remington is theoperating pressure and chamber throat. SAAMI (Sporting Arms and AmmunitionManufacturers Institute) maximum pressure for the 223 Remington is 55,000 psi.The 5.56 NATO is loaded to 60,000 psi. Chamber throat for the 223 Remington is shorter than 5.56 NATO chambers as well.Firing 223 Remington ammunition in a 5.56 NATO chamber is common though thelonger throat length of the 5.56 may cause some pressure degradation. On rareoccurrence, particularly with light for caliber bullets a failure to cycle may occurin an MSR[…]”

Excerpt From: Hornady Manufacturing Company & Neal Emery. “Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading.” Hornady Manufacturing Company, 2013. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.


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[bigedp51]

I do not care what the Hornady manual stated, I posted the MIL-C-63989C (AR) Which is the testing requirements for commercial contract ammunition made for the military.

Forget NATO CIP pressure standards this is the European testing method and it is "NOT" used in the U.S.

This is very simple a 55,000 psi pressure generated in the longer 5.56 throat will be a higher pressure in a short throated .223.

Now read the link below for the .223 and you will see pressure standards for the American SAAMI and the European CIP with a transducer and copper crusher.

This is no different than looking at your speedometer and seeing 60 mph and below it is 100 kph. FORGET NATO standards, we do not use them in the United States.

Cartridge Pressure Standards

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

Now read page 10-19 below from TM-43-0001-27, the pressure is 55,000 psi for the M855 round. What you do not see is the military sets 52,000 cup or 55,000 psi depending if the copper crusher or transducer test method is used.

http://www.cneat.ru/foto/cartridge-NATO.pdf

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by bigedp51

[postalpainmaker]

I do not care what the Hornady manual stated, I posted the MIL-C-63989C (AR) Which is the testing requirements for commercial contract ammunition made for the military.

Forget NATO CIP pressure standards this is the European testing method and it is "NOT" used in the U.S.

This is very simple a 55,000 psi pressure generated in the longer 5.56 throat will be a higher pressure in a short throated .223.

Now read the link below for the .223 and you will see pressure standards for the American SAAMI and the European CIP with a transducer and copper crusher.

This is no different than looking at your speedometer and seeing 60 mph and below it is 100 kph. FORGET NATO standards, we do not use them in the United States.

Cartridge Pressure Standards

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

Now read page 10-19 below from TM-43-0001-27, the pressure is 55,000 psi for the M855 round. What you do not see is the military sets 52,000 cup or 55,000 psi depending if the copper crusher or transducer test method is used.

http://www.cneat.ru/foto/cartridge-NATO.pdf

 

.223 is a SAMMI SPEC round. 5.56 is not. There is no SAMMI standards for 5.56. Not all 5.56 is produced around the world has the same specs. Different 5.56 produced can result in different pressures. Norinco 5.56 will more then likely have a different pressure then LC 5.56 even if they load there's for .223 55,000 psi SAMMI pressures.

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[bigedp51]

55 minutes ago, postalpainmaker said:

.223 is a SAMMI SPEC round. 5.56 is not. There is no SAMMI standards for 5.56. Not all 5.56 is produced around the world has the same specs. Different 5.56 produced can result in different pressures. Norinco 5.56 will more then likely have a different pressure then LC 5.56 even if they load there's for .223 55,000 psi SAMMI pressures.

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The 5.56 is the European metric measurement of the .223 Remington and the European CIP considers the .223 and 5.56x45 to be one in the same cartridge.

And there is a SAAMI standard for the 5.56x45 chamber pressure at 52,000 cup or 55,000 psi. And to keep it simple for you if the manufactures didn't know what the pressure standard was for the 5.56x45 U.S. manufactures could not make any ammunition. On top of this I gave you two military sources for what the SAAMI chamber pressure is for the 5.56x45. Your problem is you do not understand that in Europe they measure chamber pressure differently than we do in the USA.

And once you grasp that 60 mph is also 100 kph and 55,000 psi US SAAMI is 62,000 psi in Europe using CIP standards you might come up to speed. If not you will always be arguing about something you know nothing about.

Below my throat length is listed for my Savage .223 with a 1 in 9 twist at .0566 and it is "LONGER" than my AR15 rifles. Meaning this rifle can be loaded warmer than the loads listed in manuals for the short throated .223 rifles with a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist.

HOLLIGER ON .223/5.56 CHAMBERS

http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm

Edited December 11, 2016 by bigedp51

[GrumpyOne]

Let me caution everyone about attitudes...Attitudes can get threads locked.

[postalpainmaker]

First, 100 kms is actual 62 mph

Second , the different measurement standards are not lost on me. The external dimension of the two rounds are exactly the same. Only difference is chamber of rifle and pressure of round. If there is no difference in the pressure of ammunition as you say then they would be the exact same round. Which they are close but are not!

5.56x45 is not a SAMMI adopted caliber. Post me a link to this SAMMI spec 5.56x45.


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[postalpainmaker]

I'm done. I'm not going to argue this anymore. This got way off topic.

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[bigedp51]

59 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Let me caution everyone about attitudes...Attitudes can get threads locked.

 

I do not have an attitude, I'm posting actual military information and documents. When you pressure test M855 ammunition in a military M16 chamber it is 55,000 psi using American SAAMI pressure taking standards. And if you fire the military M855 round in a short throated .223 chamber the pressure will be approximately 6,000 psi higher.

The same can happen if you work up a load in your rifle .020 off the lands and then seat the bullet jammed into the rifling and get a pressure spike.

The only difference between the 5.56 and the .223 is throat length and not all .223 rifles have the shorter throats.

If the OP wants to fix his problem and be able to fire any ammo then have a gunsmith lengthen the throat.

Edited December 11, 2016 by bigedp51

[carlspeed]

What's the compromise load with 335? 25gr on a 55gr bullet? Small rifle primers?

[bigedp51]

On 12/9/2016 at 11:06 PM, armydad said:

I have a buddy with AR-15 rifles chambered in 223 REM and 5.56. When he fires Winchester white box through them, the rifle chambered in 223 REM fails to eject the casing after 2-3 rounds and it is really stuck. I've done some research and mostly understand the difference in the rounds and rifles - and that is was not smart to shoot the higher pressure round in the 223 REM. I don't have the experience to know if there is a compromise round/load data that will fire accurately and reliably in both rifles - say out to 100 yards. He doesn't want to worry about which rounds are for which rifle; he wants them interchangeable.

I use H335 for my 5.56 loads, but from what I've seen on Hodgdon's website, this powder is not recommended for 223 REM. I'd appreciate any help and recommendations on this - even if it means installing a different barrel, etc.

Thanks!

Tell your buddy to not shoot white box 5.56 ammunition in a .223 chambered rifle with a short throat.

If you are thinking of loading for your buddy, DO NOT do it, if he mixes up the ammo between his two AR15 it could cause an accident.

Hodgdon's website for the .223 (55 GR. SPR SP, H335, start load, 23.0, max load, 25.3)

Below Sierra load data .223 and 5.56

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Tell your buddy if he reloads to make a workup load for his .223 chambered AR15 and then shoot in both rifles.

Or have a gunsmith use a 5.56 finish reamer in his .223 chamber and then not worry about what ammo he shoots. Or buy a new 5.56 barrel and install it, look at the chamber options I posted before.

Edited December 11, 2016 by bigedp51

[Steve RA]

I use 25.5 H-335 with 55gr Hornady soft point at 2.252 OAL.  That puts the base of bullet at juncture of neck and shoulder and the cannelure out by about .088.  Just fits in magazine without dragging.  This in LC cases with Tula SRM primers.

If you load long you should check if interference with rifling by coating bullet with a magic marker, chamber and check for marks on bullet by rifling

[Absocold]

1 hour ago, bigedp51 said:

Tell your buddy if he reloads to make a workup load for his .223 chambered AR15 and then shoot in both rifles.

This.

[hitman]

Swap 223 chambered barrel for a 556 barrel, problem solved. 

[bigedp51]

At least there are a few people here almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am.