Why get rid of tactical sequence?

[Roddy556]

I have seen a lot of talk about the new one second down rule which I personally like as it puts more focus on accuracy.

The only comments I see about the no tactical sequence is people saying good, they hated it. 

Does anyone else feel tactical sequence was a good thing? I think it was something that was fun, maybe more "realistic", and one of the things that separated IDPA from IPSC/USPSA.

What are your thoughts? Is this an attempt to make IDPA more like IPSC or was there a different reason?

[rowdyb]

it was boring, it was used the same way all the time, too many people messed it up, it was justified with a psuedo tactical reason, stage designers often made illegal stages with it mixing seq and priority.

i think, i don't know, that the reason was to make understanding, shooting and designing stages more consistent. Easier I guess. Kind of like the reloads. If you have one kind of shooting, tac priority, you have less to worry about when designing stages, SO-ing stages, teaching new shooters.

To tell a shooter "do it all like this ....." is much easier/better? than "shoo some like this, some not like that, some like this...."

Personally, I didn't like it because it just felt like a 'mental trick' and a poorly executed one.

[Roddy556]

That makes sense rowdyb. And you're right it does complicated things and feels artificial  The biggest complaint I hear about IDPA is the rules are too complicated and that does keep people away from the sport. If you had to get rid of one thing to make it simpler tactical sequence would be a good choice. Though one thing I did like was it made stages feel "bigger." Three targets become five engagements.

Another question I have for you or anyone else:

I am going to be helping get a local unsanctioned match started to get local shooters to try IDPA. How do people feel about bending rules at a match like that to allow a little more leeway for interesting stage designs or to make it simpler for newer shooters?

A few examples I was thinking of, and this may be allowed I am not sure, are allowing new shooters to begin in low ready instead of in a holster or to shoot .22's.

For stages I thought it would be neat to have a random target not visible to the shooter swapped out with a no shoot target. Also having snap caps placed at random in magazines by other competitors to simulate a stoppage.

Now I can understand that someone might say the stage won't be consistent with official matches or shooter to shooter and someone will have an advantage but it would be random and it is just a game.

Anyone's thoughts on that? Is that being creative and inclusive or going too far? The idea is just to get people to come out and try it 

Edited November 20, 2016 by Roddy556

[MikeBurgess]

It's not a "game" it's a competition that's why we have timers and score the targets. What you describe sounds like a fun practice day with your friends , but not a competition

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[Roddy556]

35 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

It's not a "game" it's a competition that's why we have timers and score the targets. What you describe sounds like a fun practice day with your friends , but not a competition

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Well a game is a competitive activity but I get what you are saying and that is a valid point. I also missed this rule:

"6.9.2 Blind stages are not allowed in IDPA, additionally, moveable non-threat indicators are not allowed."

Our old local match director used to hold unsanctioned matches with snap cap stoppages and it was fun and, I felt, realistic. He tried to mix in elements like that as well as an all revolver match with PPC and IDPA elements. 

But I get that is not what IDPA is all about so I will try not to have much or any of it in a match if we hope to move towards being an official club.

Thanks for the reply.

[Roddy556]

I guess I should add too that I was only curious about "bending" the rules for a local match. There are so many great stage designs that are IDPA legal that staying within the rules is easy.

I love IDPA. It has a lot going for it especially where I am in Canada. IPSC requires a two day course to be able to compete and has too much "gaming" for a lot of people's liking. There are not a lot of shooting ranges willing to allow action shooting for a variety of reasons but IDPA allows a fun, busy match to be had in a small space. Stages can be shot and reset quickly so people do more shooting and less standing around.

People here say why own a handgun, you can't carry it anyways. IDPA gives people a fun reason to keep shooting handguns. The skills are real life based so that adds an attractive element.

Other stage ideas I had were a flashlight stage where the beam must be held on the target while it is being shot, mixing no threat targets with shoot targets that will be encountered while slicing the pie, and having bank robbery elements for a series of scenarios from hostages to stopping a get away car by shooting at a "tire."

I just want to make sure everyone has fun and IDPA becomes more popular in my area.

[rowdyb]

i admire your willingness to grow shooting in your area and especially competitive shooting.

but my personal opinion is if i go to an idpa match, it should be 100% an idpa match. one of the things i dislike about idpa is the huge variance between matches place to place. and this variance is largely in the adherence to the rules.

if you need a sanctioning body to hold a match, follow their rules. the end. but if you're able to hold matches on your own in cooperation with an indoor range just call it "action pistol" and then do whatever you want. but don't call it idpa and promote it as idpa when it aint.

(yes, you just felt the world stop turning as i defended idpa)

[davsco]

yeah just call it an outlaw action shooting match or intro action shooting match or something like that.  good on you for trying to get more folks in the competitive shooting sports!

[Jim Watson]

You can do nearly all that stuff within IDPA policy.  You can even move threat indicators around, that rule against, that rule book, has not yet been adopted.

Save the snap cap stuff for practice days with your more proficient shooters, not novices.  We had a stage today that ran the gun empty during a WHO phase.  I can do a fair weak hand reload, but most of the people were shifting hands back and forth, which was safer for them.

If you want something simple to bring truly new shooters along without dropping them into the deep end of IDPA or IPSC, check out Action Shooting International.   http://asi-usa.org/

 

[Roddy556]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I am new to this forum but it seemed to be the best place to ask questions about IDPA . 

For all the reasons you guys mentioned I think having a legitimate, legal IDPA match is the way to go. I wasn't sure, that's why I asked.

There may be experienced shooters hoping to get into a club and if they think it's not being taken too seriously it may just turn them off.

There is also I believe, and I could be wrong, the option to use unsanctioned equipment and shoot for no score. A match director allowed my girlfriend to shoot like that and it was the only way she was ever going to try any sort of match. I would hate to turn someone away because they had the wrong holster. If they try it and like it they can get better gear for next time.

You guys have given me a lot to think about.

Oh and why was 6.9.2 put in? What was wrong with moveable threat indicators? That sounds completely true to IDPA principles.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Roddy556

[MHicks]

The problem with moveable threat indicators is that you want everyone to shoot the same match as much as possible. It's a competition. A stage can be easier or harder for some shooters when you have variables introduced. Mark

[rowdyb]

you've just scratched the surface of the greatest "problem" idpa has. trying to reconcile 'real life' with a shooting game. this is an exercise in frustration and will only cause you problems. imho think of it as a game with practical roots, like say modern pentathlon, and you'll be further along.

if you're a new club in town and want to attract new and seasoned shooters then

• have a consistent match day and time
• follow the rules of whatever you're doing
• have a written stage description for each stage
• be firm in application of the rules as far as procedurals and dqs. use them to teach not shame or hurt people.
• put up scores as quickly as possible.
• build stages that are varied. mix things up. variety will appeal to more people.
• KISS as much as possible.

[Jim Watson]

There is... the option to use unsanctioned equipment and shoot for no score.

Yes, the Not For Competition provision.  I have seen that applied properly exactly once, with a noncompliant gun in a concealed holster.  On the other hand, I have seen a number of skeleton race holsters and even a tackytickle thigh rig, the which are specifically not allowed even NFC.  But they get used anyhow, either the MD doesn't know, doesn't care, or can't stand to turn down an entry fee.

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Jim Watson

[JD45]

It was stupid. Just like pushing people to take all day to fire a shot in self defense. The new scoring is beyond stupid. 

Why not make a -1 10 pts down and allow bench rests? Might as well. 

[SandyASI]

19 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

You can do nearly all that stuff within IDPA policy.  You can even move threat indicators around, that rule against, that rule book, has not yet been adopted.

Save the snap cap stuff for practice days with your more proficient shooters, not novices.  We had a stage today that ran the gun empty during a WHO phase.  I can do a fair weak hand reload, but most of the people were shifting hands back and forth, which was safer for them.

If you want something simple to bring truly new shooters along without dropping them into the deep end of IDPA or IPSC, check out Action Shooting International.   http://asi-usa.org/

 

Thanks Jim.  We did design ASI with the new shooters specifically in mind.

 

Sandy Wylie

[Jim Watson]

Is there a literature package I could give the proprietors of a new range under construction here?  I think they will need something besides lane rental to draw in shooters from the pastures. 

[Roddy556]

4 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

There is... the option to use unsanctioned equipment and shoot for no score.

Yes, the Not For Competition provision.  I have seen that applied properly exactly once, with a noncompliant gun in a concealed holster.  On the other hand, I have seen a number of skeleton race holsters and even a tackytickle thigh rig, the which are specifically not allowed even NFC.  But they get used anyhow, either the MD doesn't know, doesn't care, or can't stand to turn down an entry fee.

 

They let my girlfriend shoot with a Walther P22. It was the only gun she was comfortable using so it was nice of them. With the new scoring she would have done really well. She wasn't really fast but was only down a few points!

Thanks again everyone for all the input. I have a few stage ideas in mind. The only thing I think I could use now is an idea for a simple mover or even just a reactive target that could be used on an indoor range. I saw a turner made out of PVC pipe but it doesn't look like it would last.

[SandyASI]

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 3:23 PM, Jim Watson said:

Is there a literature package I could give the proprietors of a new range under construction here?  I think they will need something besides lane rental to draw in shooters from the pastures. 

Jim,

Sorry for the delay, I don't get to this forum much.

Email me at Sandy@ASI-USA.org and we will get some stuff to you.

 

Sandy