Will they ever do away with major/minor for Limited?

[kneelingatlas]

I have a ported .22 short Olympic rapid fire pistol with 0.7oz trigger pull, should I be free to compete on an equal footing with a 40 major pistol in a practical pistol match?

[Gooldylocks]

14 minutes ago, kneelingatlas said:

I have a ported .22 short Olympic rapid fire pistol with 0.7oz trigger pull, should I be free to compete on an equal footing with a 40 major pistol in a practical pistol match?

I think you will have to only get 2.82 points for a Charlie, and .87 for a Delta. But luckily we will be able to adjust it up to until it is winning 33% of all the major matches.

[IronArcher]

There is a "difficulty" difference between shooting 9mm at 125PF and 40sw at 165PF.  You have to control more recoil in Major than in Minor.  That's the reason for the scoring difference.  You can achieve faster follow up shots with Minor 9mm than with Major 40sw.  Also, 9mm with the same length magazine (141mm for Limited) means more rounds, making for fewer reloads and Decreasing the difficulty of running a course of fire.  Those are 2 reasons for Minor having a lower scoring system than Major. For those reasons, I certainly hope they never do away with Minor/Major...Keep things the way they are.  Although I will say that I know several Limited shooters who prefer 9mm for the division and ARE competitive against Major PF Limited shooters.  There are obviously fewer of them though, because the limited division is more about speed, and those shooting 9mm HAVE to worry about accuracy in order to compete with the higher scoring Major PF shooters who can get away with more "C Zone" hits and an occasional "D Zone" hit.

I'm fully aware, and even in agreement with the reasons for the 2 power factors.

I am not advocating eliminating them, nor am I in favor of eliminating a scoring system that compensates shooters for shooting major.

Simply saying the scoring as it is, could be improved, and that the scoring advantage given major is too great. Yes, there should be some scoring advantage given to those that shoot major, just not one that virtually eliminates the competitiveness of shooting minor.

I keep hearing that the scoring isn't meant to be fair. I still don't understand that. Why does shooting major necessitate a rule structure that all but guarantees it winning.

What is so great about shooting major, that a suggestion of modifying its unfair scoring to one that, while still giving a benefit to people shooting major, helps to level the playing field, causes it's defenders such alarm?

Your shooting major, not saving the world from communism.

 

 

[rhett45acp]

I'll comment in a nutshell.  Leave it alone, especially as DaveALT pointed out.  Prod, Open and Lim are just fine.  You can tweak a little on SS about the holster IMHO.  I wish I could just run the same position as Production.  Since I like flip flopping between the two.

Since I do stats for a match it is simple for me to "what if" some of the scores in a vacuum.

Trust me for the two I what if, Limited and SS, switching between Minor and Major is not going to change that much.  Especially in limited.  I am getting beat regardless.  On the field, no amount of tweaked points is going to make up for the fact shooter X has a .5 sec faster draw, better splits, better reloads, better stage breakdown and over all better game.  To me the low hanging fruit is not changing the point system, but picking up the gun during the week and practicing a tad will generate great rewards. 

I shoot a lot of SS minor and I go into it with a 100% understanding of the points and how it works. 

In SS the difference between 8 and 10 rounds, depending on the match, does become a bit relevant.  Some matches just lend an advantage to 10 rounds.  I would expect this is similar in revolver.  But both of these divisions are cool, but not USPSA bread and butter right now.  The big three are Limited, Prod and Open.  They work and work well.  

Leave it Alone.

 

 

 

[benvoice]

I'm fully aware, and even in agreement with the reasons for the 2 power factors.

I am not advocating eliminating them, nor am I in favor of eliminating a scoring system that compensates shooters for shooting major.

Simply saying the scoring as it is, could be improved, and that the scoring advantage given major is too great. Yes, there should be some scoring advantage given to those that shoot major, just not one that virtually eliminates the competitiveness of shooting minor.

I keep hearing that the scoring isn't meant to be fair. I still don't understand that. Why does shooting major necessitate a rule structure that all but guarantees it winning.

What is so great about shooting major, that a suggestion of modifying its unfair scoring to one that, while still giving a benefit to people shooting major, helps to level the playing field, causes it's defenders such alarm?

Your shooting major, not saving the world from communism.

 

 

I don't think anyone thinks "major" is so Great or think that they rock and minor sucks. The difference is not just the PF. It's the difference in recoil. There is a LOT less recoil in 9mm than in 40.

I wanted to shoot 9mm minor limited and actually still do from time to time. The scoring system is fair though, and as I stated many still compete with minor in Limited and do very well. I disagree with your saying that the scoring system "all but guarantees a win for major". The Alphas score 5 points for both major and minor. So go ahead and shoot Minor, just get as many alphas as you can and don't drop and Deltas. You CAN win with minor. but the difference in recoil between the 9mm and 40sw Does need the scoring difference.

Either way, good luck with your campaign to do away with major scoring.

Also check match scores on Practiscore and see the Lim shooters who use minor. Many of them do Really well and even win from time to time.

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[IHAVEGAS]

19 minutes ago, benvoice said:

I wanted to shoot 9mm minor limited and actually still do from time to time. The scoring system is fair though, and as I stated many still compete with minor in Limited and do very well. I disagree with your saying that the scoring system "all but guarantees a win for major".

Could you post a link to a match somewhere where this was true ?

Really I think the reason to try and improve the system is moot. You would do it to add more individual freedom with technique and equipment, under the assumption that this would allow more people to have more fun or the same amount of people to have more fun. 

If folks are determined not to like something without giving it a chance, then you can not force them to have more fun. I give up on the topic. 

[benvoice]

https://practiscore.com/results/new/29280

In this match a PCC shooting minor beat out everyone including other divisions shooting with Major.
I'll have to keep looking, although I just recently saw that situation in the Limited division as well. It doesn't take long to look through match results at Practiscore.com

There was also the recent turn over in the revolver division in which more shooters switched to minor because it gave them 8 shots instead of 6 with major. Now those who still compete with the major PF .45's in revolver are at the disadvantage AND the minor PF shooters are WINNING the revolver nationals. So I guess the answer is to just get everyone to shoot minor and then it will fix itself. Lol. Or heck, just go shoot some other discipline and forget all about it.




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[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, benvoice said:

https://practiscore.com/results/new/29280

In this match a PCC shooting minor beat out everyone including other divisions shooting with Major.

And the price of Granny Apples in Hong Kong is about $3.97 US. 

[teros135]

35 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

...If folks are determined not to like something without giving it a chance, then you can not force them to have more fun. I give up on the topic. 

We, the shooters of USPSA, have given Limited (and Prod and Open) a chance and have voted them the three most popular divisions.  No need to change.  More need to practice, and to simply compete in divisions our equipment matches.

Glad to hear this topic can finally be put to rest.  

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, teros135 said:

We, the shooters of USPSA,

So you would like to see a vote too ?

 

[benvoice]

Yep.


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[ATLDave]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 I give up on the topic. 

Finally.  That's all we ever wanted.  

[teros135]

24 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

So you would like to see a vote too ?

 

No.  Only the single person (or the few) who advocates for a change to favor their own choice of equipment would want to waste the time of the entire sport.  

You've said your piece (repeatedly) and said you were done.  Please let it go.  

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, teros135 said:

No.  Only the single person (or the few) who advocates for a change to favor their own choice of equipment would want to waste the time of the entire sport.   

I have given up on the topic, here. But still enjoy responding when quoted  . 

For what it is worth, my limited gun is a 40 TSS based on the STI Edge and I am on the lookout for CZ TS Orange in 40 when they become available. Don't see anything changing for me personally, it is fun to hammer a major pf gun when the mood strikes (although a big stick minor is still something that sounds like a lot of fun).

What I shoot is one thing, what I think would be best for the sport is another thing, I do not assume that the other sides opinions are based only or mostly on their self interests.  

 

[Gooldylocks]

You can tee of a hole with any club you have in your bag. The rules are what they are, and you may do as you see fit while remaining within them. It you decide you prefer your 3 iron and hit that off the tee, you can't complain and try to change the rules when someone gets out their carbon shaft oversize head driver and goes yard with it.

The rules have been laid out and everyone knows them, therefore it is a fair challenge for all.

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[IHAVEGAS]

38 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

You can tee of a hole with any club you have in your bag. The rules are what they are, and you may do as you see fit while remaining within them. It you decide you prefer your 3 iron and hit that off the tee, you can't complain and try to change the rules when someone gets out their carbon shaft oversize head driver and goes yard with it.
 

Perhaps it is worth noting that they do not force everyone to always use the same club.

 

(Sorry, couldn't stop myself  ) 

[ATLDave]

Nor does USPSA force everyone to use the same gun. 

If some fool wants to replace his driver with a baffing spoon or 1-iron blade, that's fine.  The scoring of golf, which counts how many strokes it takes to get into the hole, gives a significant advantage to length off the tee.  So pretty much every serious, competent golfer uses one of his/her 14 slots for a driver.  But they do have a choice.

And people have a choice to shoot minor in limited.  It's allowed.  It's like teeing off with a 1-iron.  There are certain aspects of it that are easier than using a driver, but, overall, the game favors the use of a driver on most holes.  So that's that.  They're not about to re-jigger rules until ~50% of players are teeing off with an iron on par 4's and 5's in pursuit of "parity" between drivers and 1-irons... because parity between two disparate pieces of equipment isn't the goal.

Just as it isn't the goal in USPSA.  

Edited December 5, 2016 by ATLDave

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Nor does USPSA force everyone to use the same gun. 

If some fool wants to replace his driver with a baffing spoon or 1-iron blade, that's fine.  The scoring of golf, which counts how many strokes it takes to get into the hole, gives a significant advantage to length off the tee.  So pretty much every serious, competent golfer uses one of his/her 14 slots for a driver.  But they do have a choice.

And people have a choice to shoot minor in limited.  It's allowed.  It's like teeing off with a 1-iron.  There are certain aspects of it that are easier than using a driver, but, overall, the game favors the use of a driver on most holes.  So that's that.

"That's that"?  Wanna bet?  Even though it's all been said in these 7 pages (so far), over and over? 

[IronArcher]

https://practiscore.com/results/new/29280

In this match a PCC shooting minor beat out everyone including other divisions shooting with Major.
I'll have to keep looking, although I just recently saw that situation in the Limited division as well. It doesn't take long to look through match results at Practiscore.com

Open: All using major
Limited: top 3 major
4 of top 5 major
8 of top 10 major
6 of bottom 10 minor


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[IronArcher]

You can tee of a hole with any club you have in your bag. The rules are what they are, and you may do as you see fit while remaining within them. It you decide you prefer your 3 iron and hit that off the tee, you can't complain and try to change the rules when someone gets out their carbon shaft oversize head driver and goes yard with it.

The rules have been laid out and everyone knows them, therefore it is a fair challenge for all.

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Point being, you don't get to move closer because you choose to use your 5 iron instead of your driver.


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[Gooldylocks]

57 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

 

Point being, you don't get to move closer because you choose to use your 5 iron instead of your driver.


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.....which is exactly what you are trying to do. 

[motosapiens]

On 12/1/2016 at 10:44 AM, IronArcher said:

On the other hand, changes could be made to scoring to make shooting minor a viable option. The disparity is still too much to make shooting minor viable... even in single stack.
 

the bolded part is provably false, except at SS nationals. In major matches that weren't purposely set up to make minor non-viable, ss minor is quite competitive, and minor shooters won many area matches in the last couple years, as well as the silver bullet classic.

Edited December 6, 2016 by motosapiens

[Gooldylocks]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the bolded part is provably false, except at SS nationals. In major matches that weren't purposely set up to make minor non-viable, ss minor is quite competitive, and minor shooters won many area matches in the last couple years, as well as the silver bullet classic.

Moto, until they are winning 49% or better of all matches at all levels including those set up specifically to favor major then it is not equal. You should probably go ahead and read the whole thread so you don't look silly in front of the new guy.

 

 

/sarc

Edited December 6, 2016 by Gooldylocks

[motosapiens]

Just now, Gooldylocks said:

Moto, until they are winning 49% or better of all matches at all levels including those set up specifically to favor major then it is not equal. You should probably go ahead and read the whole thread so you don't look silly in front of new guy.

 

 

/sarc

heh heh. See, here's the thing, shooting minor is fun.... for girls and little kids. I usually shoot SS minor because in most matches it's an *advantage* for me (i'm not a girl or little kid, but I *am* good at math). But major is just mo betta funnah. Minor is like a scooter, major is like a grown up motorcycle. Minor is like vw bug, and major is like a corvette. 

No one likes driving an underpowered motorcycle or car, so why would anyone want to drive an underpowered gun. It's inconceivable!!!

For people that are forced by old age or infirmity to shoot minor, I would recommend just sucking it up, buttercup. If you're that feeble and weak, you're not going to win anything anyway, and it's certainly better than playing golf or cribbage or whatever other really old people do while they're waiting for the big stroke.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gooldylocks]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

...For people that are forced by old age or infirmity to shoot minor...

Talking about yourself in the 3rd person like that is very creepy and weird, just fyi