I Don’t “know” My Gun…putting The Cart Before The

[tank69]

OK, see if this makes sense and bear with me.

I have a G35, shoot WWB ammo, Race holster, Fiber sites, magwell, etc, etc. I have all the “necessities” a “D” shooter doesn’t really need. I shoot like a “D” shooter, but why? I think I figured it out last night, I don’t know my gun. What do I mean? Well, when I first got the G35, I took it to the foothills where we shoot and put about 50 rounds thru it “sighting it in”. Now, I don’t shoot six o’clock and I really didn’t take a realistic measurement of how far the target was and I was shooting from a rest. I made a few adjustments with the rear sight and back in the box it went only to be shot 4-5 weeks later. Yeah, I know, no practice is a bad thing, but that’s life at this point. Keep in mind, I’m NOT trying to set the world on fire with my shooting skills, I want to get better, but if it takes a few years, that’s fine with me. Family/work obligations come first and nothing can compare to the satisfaction I get from coaching my son’s little league team.

Anyway, my takeaway from this revelation is this, how do I “sight my gun in”? I would really like to shoot 6 o’clock, I think in target shooting it is a big benefit. When I hunt, I use “dead on”, but speed isn’t always a factor when a deer doesn’t know a bullet will soon be coming at it. So 6 o’clock is going to be me, that’s gonna’ be my new system of aiming. So, at what length should I choose to do my initial sighting in? 20, 50 feet and adjust from there, high/low, during a match. What prompted this, besides lousy shooting, was the Matt Burkett email stating he laser range find the targets. Now I’m not getting that extreme, but it made a lot of sense. I know I need to dryfire and practice my draws, but if I get my G35 sighted in correctly, I can put that horse in front of the cart and make some progress.

As always, your thoughts are GREATLY appreciated.

Tank

[iweiny]

Sorry for being a newbie but was does "shoot 6 o'clock mean?"

Ira

[EricW]

Unless you want to mess with adjustable sights, just use the hold needed to put the bullets where you want them to go. It's really not any more complicated than that.

[Loves2Shoot]

Sorry for being a newbie but was does "shoot 6 o'clock mean?"

Ira

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is putting what you want to shoot on the "top" of the front sight.

Think of an icecream cone. It is sighting it so that if you line up the sights with the top of the cone, you hit the icecream.

[Loves2Shoot]

It helps to know where your gun hits at many distances. I sight my limited gun so that I can hold 6 O'clock in the upper A/B zone A and get a dead center hit in the box. A fiber optic can mess with you. Make sure you see the black around the top of the FO when sighting in.

[tank69]

Unless you want to mess with adjustable sights, just use the hold needed to put the bullets where you want them to go.  It's really not any more complicated than that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do have adjustable sights, sorry I forgot to mention that. Even if they aren't adjustable, why should I have to, theoretically, high and to the right to hit the center of the target? See what i'm saying?

[MikeFoley]

Having shot Glocks for several years before going to a single action, I have used mostly the factory night sights and Heine sights with and without fiber optics. Every Glock I ever owned or shot had the point of impact setup behind the front sight, and not 6 o'clock hold. After shooting that way for so long, I have all of my other guns now sighted in the same way.

Everyone learns 6 o'clock, or as I affectionately call it, pumpkin on the post, or in my dialect, punkin on the post. Do you want to shoot 6 o'clock because you are most comfortable that way, or because you also shoot bullseye? In USPSA, IDPA, GSSF, NRAAP, Steel Challenge, etc. the targets we use don't require you break rings the size of your projectile, but 8" circles, squares, and rectangles must simply be hit to score the highest value.

Regardless of which sight picture you choose, sight your gun at many distances, but remember the average shot in USPSA is 16 yards, and the range will be from arms length to 50 yards.

[EricW]

Unless you want to mess with adjustable sights, just use the hold needed to put the bullets where you want them to go.  It's really not any more complicated than that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do have adjustable sights, sorry I forgot to mention that. Even if they aren't adjustable, why should I have to, theoretically, high and to the right to hit the center of the target? See what i'm saying?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What foemeister said.

Aiming high is just a Glock thing. I'm thinking about trying the "high" trijicons to fix that issue.)

The aiming "right" is a you issue probably. (I shot left at first, so don't feel bad). Surf the forum, work on your trigger pull, buy Brian's book, and eventually you'll get the left/right thing worked out. The best thing you can do is forgo gizmos, avoid tactibillies and their minions, buy lots of ammo, shoot said ammo, and you'll be fine.

[MikeFoley]

Just recalled one other Glock thing. Most shooters shoot a Glock low at first because of the trigger, and have to learn trigger control to stop that. I pushed shots low when I first shot Glock, and I see it a lot at the matches with new Glock shooters. Try dryfiring the gun at various objects without letting the sights move from a perfect sight picture, that helped me a lot with many types of guns.

[Clay1]

Tank, if you are on this site somewhere inside of you - you really do want to get better. Wouldn't it be nice if you could do it in a matter of a few months instead of years?

Really, Brian Enos' book and DVD's by Matt Burkett are wonderful ways to learn the right things from the beginning and saving lots of time and money practicing the wrong things.

If you can't make it to the range, but have some time discipline, dry fire on a regular basis and you will still become a better shooter quicker. Good luck to you.

[tank69]

Eric, Fomeister & Clay,

I had some instruction this weekend buy one of the local IDPA guys, he posts on GT and I think here. Anyway, you guys are all RIGHT, it sure wasn't the gun, sights, aliens, etc. IT WAS ME. Mark changed my grip, worked on my stance, left my sights alone and fired around 300-400 rounds. All I can say is that was the best afternoon I have every had shooting, I just now need to practice it at home. I also plan on getting MB's "how to practice" DVD and a timer. Mark also worked with my 10yr. old son and his G17. My son had a blast and I hope to have him shooting his first steel match in the next few months. He was bugging my last night to let him dryfire while he was going to sleep.

As for the glock having an "odd" trigger, you are right. With that said, would trigger job help hide that quirk? I don't plan on any upgrades, besides ammo, just asking.

Thanks everyone for the replies, got alot of good info.

Tank

[standles]

Family/work obligations come first and nothing can compare to the satisfaction I get from coaching my son’s little league team.

Tank

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tank:

Just think what satisfaction you would get if you started and coached a youth pistol league? I say this tounge in cheek but seriously think about passing our shooting sports on. It would be wonderful if the shooting disciplines had the participation of youth like the "contemapray" sports do.

Later,

[Clay1]

Congrats Tank. Glad that a couple of things are falling together for you. It sure is a lot more fun with a little knowledge than just struggling. I will be on Matt's waiting list for Vol 7 on how to practice. Watched for the Nth time last night "How to Shoot Faster - Vol 4". Great stuff. Bluntly though I would start at the begining and get 1-3 on the two disk set first.

Short basketball story on visualization. Two groups of kids A & B. Both groups were shown the proper technique to shoot freethrows. Group A was allow to practice on an actual court and shoot as many baskets as possible. Group B wasn't allowed to touch a basketball but was rather directed to think about the technique and visualize how it is to be done.

When both groups were allowed back on the court which group shot better freethrows? It is an old study but my recollection says that the group that just visualized shot as well as the group that practiced. Statistically insignificant difference.

So why the basketball reference and how can that relate to shooting. I've been reading Brian Enos' book and visualizing daily without as much range time as I would like. I'm getting better. I think, eat, sleep and even while working think of shooting and technique. I'm faster and better than ever. Don't get me wrong, you still have to actually shoot and get familiar with your weapon but there are times when you can take three minues and just visualize the sights on a target with all of the detail that you can muster concerning stance, grip, trigger control and see the sights lift as the trigger breaks that perfect shot.

If you can't shoot think of it in detail - might surprise yourself.

Rick

[tank69]

Good analogy Rick, that's what i'm doing here at work, mostly practicing my grip. I already have MB 1-3 and 15 minutes ago ordered the How to Practice and Saul Kirsch's book. I'm gonna' watch MB 1-3 again this evening.

Congrats Tank.  Glad that a couple of things are falling together for you.  It sure is a lot more fun with a little knowledge than just struggling.  I will be on Matt's waiting list for Vol 7 on how to practice.  Watched for the Nth time last night "How to Shoot Faster - Vol 4".  Great stuff.  Bluntly though I would start at the begining and get 1-3 on the two disk set first. 

Short basketball story on visualization.  Two groups of kids A & B.  Both groups were shown the proper technique to shoot freethrows.  Group A was allow to practice on an actual court and shoot as many baskets as possible.  Group B wasn't allowed to touch a basketball but was rather directed to think about the technique and visualize how it is to be done. 

When both groups were allowed back on the court which group shot better freethrows?  It is an old study but my recollection says that the group that just visualized shot as well as the group that practiced.  Statistically insignificant difference. 

So why the basketball reference and how can that relate to shooting.  I've been reading Brian Enos' book and visualizing daily without as much range time as I would like.  I'm getting better.  I think, eat, sleep and even while working think of shooting and technique.  I'm faster and better than ever.  Don't get me wrong, you still have to actually shoot and get familiar with your weapon but there are times when you can take three minues and just visualize the sights on a target with all of the detail that you can muster concerning stance, grip, trigger control and see the sights lift as the trigger breaks that perfect shot. 

If you can't shoot think of it in detail - might surprise yourself.

Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[shred]

Short basketball story on visualization.  Two groups of kids A & B.  Both groups were shown the proper technique to shoot freethrows.  Group A was allow to practice on an actual court and shoot as many baskets as possible.  Group B wasn't allowed to touch a basketball but was rather directed to think about the technique and visualize how it is to be done. 

When both groups were allowed back on the court which group shot better freethrows?  It is an old study but my recollection says that the group that just visualized shot as well as the group that practiced.  Statistically insignificant difference. 

FWIW, the references I found say Group A improved 24%, Group B improved 23% and Group C (did neither practice nor visualization) did no better than before. These were collegiate basketball players, so there was some skill there beforehand.

[Clay1]

Shred, that reference from was the college days 20+ years ago. Like I said - statistically insignificant outcome difference between the two groups. The point is that visualization can and does help with outcomes. Also ripping and gripping can develop some nasty habbits, but visualization only focuses on perfect technique if you understand what perfect is to begin with.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not into all the mumbo jumbo stuff even with the psych degree, the point is that the process doesn't hurt a damn thing. Multiply times per day along with shorter durration also beats one period of longer duration. So frequent daydreaming that is focused with great detail has a place in many of our training routines. Just the thoughts of a C class shooter who is trying to get better so don't put too much weight into my thought patterns. But for me, it seems to be helping me in the right direction.

[shred]

I'm not doubting the value of visualization, but I am getting more skeptical of the basketball story-- while trying to chase it down, according to the references I've found, it was either- a group of schoolboys, a bunch of random adults, University of Chicago basketball players or NBA pros, either here or Australia. The time is variously 20 or 30 days, but the 24-23% is consistent. Almost all the web hits are from places selling visualization and mental-imagery classes. Maybe I'll find a real cite eventually..

Update: I'm doing better at tracking this down.. but the references are from 1967 and a little hard to find online. About the best summary of the whole topic area is that visualization plus physical practice is the best there is. The relative merits of one without or versus the other are less clear.

"These findings indicate that reducing or replacing physical practice with mental practice would be counterproductive if performance enhancement was the only consideration. However, for conditions under which physical practice may be expensive, time consuming, fatiguing, or injurious, combined mental and physical practice or mental practice alone is clearly more effective than no practice."

Edited May 16, 2005 by shred

[Mark Perez]

As for the glock having an "odd" trigger, you are right. With that said, would trigger job help hide that quirk? I don't plan on any upgrades, besides ammo, just asking.

Tank ,

Your trigger is fine .

Dryfire,dryfire,dryfire and when you get tired of that , it's Lee's turn.

see you on the range,

Mark

Edited May 16, 2005 by Mark Perez

[GuildSF4]

There is also an old story about a master piano player that was lock up for several years and could only visualize himself playing the piano and after he was released he played the piano as well as before. Can't find any references to it on line yet, it was a story I heard about 20 years ago in Piano class. (Which I still don't play )

[Clay1]

The 1967 date wouldn't surprise me at all. This just wasn't some urban ledgend but rather a case study that most people that took psych 101 had as part of their intro to psych.

I do agree that physical practice and visualization go together. My comments were that if you can't get to the range as often as you should at least think about the process of shooting in as much proper detail as possible and some gains can still be made.

Rick

[Ben Stoeger]

Rick is right I think. A good training philosophy is to Practice what you can, when you can.

However, when I "visualize" shooting when I am doing something else, It would be more accuratly described as daydreaming. haha

[Clay1]

Ben, Don't tell anyone that I daydream - it sounds so much more professional to visualize.

[Heath]

The acquisition of skill to accomplish a given task is a well researched phenomena in the area of cognitive science. Shooting a stage well is a very complex task that can be trained for in several different ways to develop skills in all the necessary components. I don't think that visualization alone will help one acquire much skill, but it can supplement other training with some benefit.

A trigger job might help to some degree, it depends on the stock trigger. Some are initially very good, and some are gritty and stack badly. A friend just bought a G23 which has an excellent stock trigger that breaks very nicely. I wasn't so fortunate when I bought my G35. If the trigger isn't very smooth, it can be distracting and annoying. If that's the case, a quick polish should fix things right up.

That said, the only thing that will fix the low-and-to-the-left syndrome is a great deal of dryfire practice. I had the same problem with my G35, so much so that I suspected that my sights were broken. Some slow-fire from a rest proved that it was just poor trigger control.