Light Primer Strikes with CCI's

[johnbu]

I suspect the slide may not be going fully into battery.  Even a handfull of thousandths can keep the FP from whacking the primer consistently hard.  remove the barrel / recoil spring and see how the slide moves in the frame. I had one with a bit of swarf still stuck in the frame groove.  The slide should move effortlessly without any glitches or hesitancy anywhere. The breech face also probably needs polishing. Remove the extractor hook and shine the breech face up.  The extractor hook might also have a burr. Inspect closely and polish the areas where it grabs the case as well as the pivot zone.  Inspect the channel for roughness, burrs too. Micro file is about the only solution if you find a burr. 

Flip the slide over. See that rib down the center? Polish it.  The sharp 90 degree angle leading edge can also drag on rounds in the mag (causing feed issues as well as slowing the slide and keeping it just a red hair from battery lock.  The fix is to take a FILE (yikes!) And file off a 0.050" chamfer on that sharp angle.  Take out the firing pin, inspect the channel for rough machining, burrs, etc. Polish with compound on cloth in a cleaning jag spun in a drill. 

Inspect the barrel chamber. There  could be rough machining grooves inside. Then the brass could expand into the grooves causing it to stick on extraction.

Plunk spin test your ammo in the barrels. If the bullet is engaging the rifling the pin strike will expend energy moving the round more fully into the chamber and not making a boom.  my tanfos don't pass plunk / spin until the OAL is UNDER 1.065".

Just a few more things to check out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nunez]

12 minutes ago, johnbu said:

I suspect the slide may not be going fully into battery.  Even a handfull of thousandths can keep the FP from whacking the primer consistently hard.  remove the barrel / recoil spring and see how the slide moves in the frame. I had one with a bit of swarf still stuck in the frame groove.  The slide should move effortlessly without any glitches or hesitancy anywhere. The breech face also probably needs polishing. Remove the extractor hook and shine the breech face up.  The extractor hook might also have a burr. Inspect closely and polish the areas where it grabs the case as well as the pivot zone.  Inspect the channel for roughness, burrs too. Micro file is about the only solution if you find a burr. 

Flip the slide over. See that rib down the center? Polish it.  The sharp 90 degree angle leading edge can also drag on rounds in the mag (causing feed issues as well as slowing the slide and keeping it just a red hair from battery lock.  The fix is to take a FILE (yikes!) And file off a 0.050" chamfer on that sharp angle.  Take out the firing pin, inspect the channel for rough machining, burrs, etc. Polish with compound on cloth in a cleaning jag spun in a drill. 

Inspect the barrel chamber. There  could be rough machining grooves inside. Then the brass could expand into the grooves causing it to stick on extraction.

Plunk spin test your ammo in the barrels. If the bullet is engaging the rifling the pin strike will expend energy moving the round more fully into the chamber and not making a boom.  my tanfos don't pass plunk / spin until the OAL is UNDER 1.065".

Just a few more things to check out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Atlanta Arms states their OAL on the ammo is 1.100. I posted plunk test photos above, let me know what you think. I'll do what you said tonight and update after. Thanks for the in depth description on what to do. 

[Dr Mitch]

#14 lbs hammer spring. Like a man.

[wav3rhythm]

#14 lbs hammer spring. Like a man.

What he said. Chasing the lowest trigger weight can be counterproductive to your shooting. It's probably easier to work on trigger control at speed than have internet bragging rights about the hours spent gunsmithing rather than dryfiring.


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[nunez]

1 hour ago, wav3rhythm said:

 

 

What he said. Chasing the lowest trigger weight can be counterproductive to your shooting. It's probably easier to work on trigger control at speed than have internet bragging rights about the hours spent gunsmithing rather than dryfiring.


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There's nothing I want more than being able to go to my local matches with trust in my gun. I dryfire everyday and live fire 1-2 week. I have #14 PD Hammer Springs on the way. I HATE gunsmithing, drives me crazy, I much rather be shooting. 

[ryridesmotox]

5 hours ago, nunez said:

Which one in particular are you planning on trying? Very interested, please keep me updated. Thanks

Heading to the range tomorrow... Going to try the Henning g5 with the pd optimized fp spring, 13 and 14lbs hammer springs and same with the stock firing pin. Whichever can cycle 50 rounds without a light strike wins striking duty for the next match... Going to start with the stock pin and go from there. I didn't have an issue in 400 rounds with the stock pin, then changed to the Henning and failure after failure to ignite. And that was with the Henning pin and the spring I got with it. I really would like the get it to work. But if not, it is what it is, tuning guns can be hit or miss til you dial it in correctly. I'll go back to the stock pin as that was the best ignition results I had. Probably 1 failure to ignite in 400-500 rounds. And that failure was a fluke on some maxxtech ammo which I haven't had good luck with in the past, just finish in out my stock of it.

[johnbu]

14 hours ago, nunez said:

Atlanta Arms states their OAL on the ammo is 1.100. I posted plunk test photos above, let me know what you think. I'll do what you said tonight and update after. Thanks for the in depth description on what to do. 

You posted pictures while I was typing. (like a ninja!)   The cases look like they may be high.  Do they EASILY spin.  I found that some just a whisker too long will turn part way, but not spin 360.  Check an entire box or two. A sample size of one has a lot of uncertainty.

 

I'm a "nut" about guns working 100% as intended.  High spring rates will certainly MAKE the gun work OVER the small issues it may have.  My personal position is to work out the issues then choose the springs that I can make run best.  But that's the difficult and frustrating path (fixing every tiny issue).  There is no shame in just saying pfffft!  7# da is great, Heck, just running the gun a few thousand rounds and a gajillion DA dry fires will improve things and may self machine away the root causes.

For matches, I would say to go with the strongest hammer spring to ensure ignition.  One "feature" of the Henning G5 is that the body is longer by 0.050 to 0.070 ( i forget the exact number now).  That extra length compresses the return spring more, robbing strike force.  That's one reason I don't run them, even though I LOVE Henning's products.

But do go through the things I listed above.  can't hurt and you may find interesting things.

[nunez]

1 hour ago, johnbu said:

You posted pictures while I was typing. (like a ninja!)   The cases look like they may be high.  Do they EASILY spin.  I found that some just a whisker too long will turn part way, but not spin 360.  Check an entire box or two. A sample size of one has a lot of uncertainty.

 

I'm a "nut" about guns working 100% as intended.  High spring rates will certainly MAKE the gun work OVER the small issues it may have.  My personal position is to work out the issues then choose the springs that I can make run best.  But that's the difficult and frustrating path (fixing every tiny issue).  There is no shame in just saying pfffft!  7# da is great, Heck, just running the gun a few thousand rounds and a gajillion DA dry fires will improve things and may self machine away the root causes.

For matches, I would say to go with the strongest hammer spring to ensure ignition.  One "feature" of the Henning G5 is that the body is longer by 0.050 to 0.070 ( i forget the exact number now).  That extra length compresses the return spring more, robbing strike force.  That's one reason I don't run them, even though I LOVE Henning's products.

But do go through the things I listed above.  can't hurt and you may find interesting things.

I went through everything you said on both my guns yesterday. Didn't find any burrs, but I followed all your instructions and polished more. I tried about 10 on the plunk test for both the Atlanta Arms and Federal and they were what the photos showed. I'll try a box for each and try twisting them as well. Should I be feeling for smoothness in twisting or just that it goes 360? 

[EngineerEli]

I have come up with a modified plunk tests that eliminates the ambiguous spin test. Just drop the round in the barrel and whack the end of the round with your finger, then turn the barrel upside down. The round should fall out freely if it passes. If your rounds are in fact too long, they will grab on the riffling when you whack it, and will not fall right out when you turn the barrel upside down.

[ryridesmotox]

20 hours ago, nunez said:

Which one in particular are you planning on trying? Very interested, please keep me updated. Thanks

Aight bro... I had 100% ignition on the stock firing pin with my Atlantic arms select 124 grain rounds. I was using the patriot defense firing pin spring and the 14lbs hammer spring. I probably could have ignited them with the 13lbs hammer spring, but I had a bunch of failure to ignite on some fiocchi and some crappy maxxtech that I had left over from a while ago. Don't buy that maxxtech shit.

Again: Atlantic Select was 100% with 14lbs hammer spring, stock firing pin, PD optimized firing pin spring, and I have the firing pin polished up too.

I have no idea what primers fiocchi has been using but God damn, they are harder than a box of rocks. Probably need a 15lbs sledge to fire off those damn things I swear.

[johnbu]

3 hours ago, ryridesmotox said:

Aight bro... I had 100% ignition on the stock firing pin with my Atlantic arms select 124 grain rounds. I was using the patriot defense firing pin spring and the 14lbs hammer spring. I probably could have ignited them with the 13lbs hammer spring, but I had a bunch of failure to ignite on some fiocchi and some crappy maxxtech that I had left over from a while ago. Don't buy that maxxtech shit.

Again: Atlantic Select was 100% with 14lbs hammer spring, stock firing pin, PD optimized firing pin spring, and I have the firing pin polished up too.

I have no idea what primers fiocchi has been using but God damn, they are harder than a box of rocks. Probably need a 15lbs sledge to fire off those damn things I swear.

I'm pretty sure wolf recycles tank armor into primers, does fiocchi buy from them?

[johnbu]

8 hours ago, nunez said:

I went through everything you said on both my guns yesterday. Didn't find any burrs, but I followed all your instructions and polished more. I tried about 10 on the plunk test for both the Atlanta Arms and Federal and they were what the photos showed. I'll try a box for each and try twisting them as well. Should I be feeling for smoothness in twisting or just that it goes 360? 

They should rotate freely.  EngineerEli's version of the test sounds good too.

Glad you went through and checked all that stuff.  hope you get it ironed out soon!

[nunez]

UPDATE:

Stock II: Added the Xtreme firing pin & 14# PD Hammer Spring

Lyman 10 Pull Avg: 6lb 11.4oz DA / 2lb 12.4oz SA

Stock II Xtreme: Added the 14# PD Hammer Spring.

Lyman 10 Pull Avg: 6lb 3.4oz DA / 2lb 6.4oz SA

 

Ammo: Atlanta Arms 147gr JHP (50 rounds DA each / 25 rounds SA each)

Stock II: No light primer strikes

Stock II Xtreme: 3 DA Light Strikes, 0 in SA

 

Ammo: Federal 147gr Flat Nose

No issues at all. Seems like what johnbu recommended worked. 

 

Going to do the plunk test with the spin and EngineerEli's finger slap. I'll update soon. 

[wav3rhythm]

Your stock 2 is about where I keep my trigger weight and I shoot better with a 7lb/3lb trigger pull. It feels like it resets a hair faster and it's faster on the timer.


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[nunez]

UPDATE: 

Did the plunk test, spin test and finger slap test.

With AA 147gr JHP, the Stock II barrel did great. No issues. The Xtreme passed the spin test but didn't feel smooth. Looked inside the barrel and was dirty and saw a black dimple near the front of the barrel grooves. Cleaned with a bore brush and then it was perfect. 

With the Fed AE 147gr, it was an utter failure. Tried Fed AE 115gr and it worked great. I think its the thinkness of the flat nose bullets. 

[Wesquire]

9 hours ago, nunez said:

UPDATE: 

Did the plunk test, spin test and finger slap test.

With AA 147gr JHP, the Stock II barrel did great. No issues. The Xtreme passed the spin test but didn't feel smooth. Looked inside the barrel and was dirty and saw a black dimple near the front of the barrel grooves. Cleaned with a bore brush and then it was perfect. 

With the Fed AE 147gr, it was an utter failure. Tried Fed AE 115gr and it worked great. I think its the thinkness of the flat nose bullets. 

I load my FN bullets crazy short for my stock 3. Ive never had feeding issues or RTB issues. I dont remember the exact length, but well under 1.1". Around 1.05"

Edited September 24, 2016 by Wesquire

[ryridesmotox]

Every gun is an individual... Probably more so in these guns. I still am planning on sending my barrels over to Bevin to have them reamed out. I think my chamber is a little tight. It almost seems like it might have something to do with my light strike issue in the past few weeks. I dunno just guess

[haiedras]

On 9/24/2016 at 8:54 AM, ARy said:

For piece of mind, send it to Bevin Grams to have it reamed. He'll have it back within two or three days.

I load RN 1.175" And JHP 1.145" (although I've found my gun like 1.125" in the PD 124 JHP).

K9 mags can handle 1.18" of RN, 1.15" JHP (as a generalization, different manufacturers, different profiles, Ylblah, blah, blah).

Edit: As a 'never know what you're going to get,'... I was running 124 JHP that loaded fine in Bolos stock barrel, but had some that would not fully chamber in Rys gun... so, unfortunately, tanfo QC strikes again. You'll have to play with what works in your gun, or have it reamed.

This. Being able to reload longer rounds takes out any futzing around depending on what bullet type you use. I reamed my barrels myself past 1.160. Accuracy was unchanged, and even though I currently load at 1.135, it's a lot nicer knowing that I can load long across all my tanfo platforms instead of on an individual basis.

[MissionaryMike]

I just ordered a Stock 2 from Joe at Patriot Defense, along w/ some of the after market parts.  This thread has me very well informed.  Thanks, guys.  

-Mike

Edited October 4, 2016 by MissionaryMike

[nunez]

UPDATE: 

Had one of my barrels reamed by Beven Grams and it made a world of a difference. Took it out today with a 10# PD Hammer Spring (5lb DA/Very low 2 to 1.15oz SA) and my regular 14# PD Hammer Spring gun. Both ran the Fed 147gr Flat Nose ammo with the barrel with no problems as I've had before. Barrel passed the plunk and finger tap test with ease. Zero light strikes with the Fed Ammo. But was surprised by how I was getting the same or even less light strikes with the CCI primers with the 10# PD Hammer Spring compared to the 13# without the reamed barrel. Going to move up to 12# PD FPS and see if I can light CCI primers 100%. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by nunez

[johnbu]

Your result is proof the rounds are too long for the un-modified barrel. A portion of the strike energy is pushing the round forward and not available for setting off the primer.  Ream the other and enjoy greater reliability.

 

 

[ryridesmotox]

I wonder how many of these chambers are actually within saami spec.

By the way... Grams is out of town til next week. After he gets back, mine is going to him. Then I'm going to test and see how much it helps. I found a factory load By MAXXTECH that used particularly hard primers... Going to grab a box and see what happens

Edited October 5, 2016 by ryridesmotox

[ElMateo487]

How much does he charge to do a barrel?

[Hylton703]

How much does he charge to do a barrel?

$29 (includes return shipping)

[ElMateo487]

UPDATE: 

Had one of my barrels reamed by Beven Grams and it made a world of a difference. Took it out today with a 10# PD Hammer Spring (5lb DA/Very low 2 to 1.15oz SA) and my regular 14# PD Hammer Spring gun. Both ran the Fed 147gr Flat Nose ammo with the barrel with no problems as I've had before. Barrel passed the plunk and finger tap test with ease. Zero light strikes with the Fed Ammo. But was surprised by how I was getting the same or even less light strikes with the CCI primers with the 10# PD Hammer Spring compared to the 13# without the reamed barrel. Going to move up to 12# PD FPS and see if I can light CCI primers 100%. 

Is this Bevan Grams?

http://www.gramsengineering.com/index.php

Also what size did he ream it to? I am new to the idea but want to have my barrel done.