1911 Provisional Division

[XRe]

I would have been less opposed to a single stack division  where other toys  like SIG220 could have participated.

Further, the exclusion of cone barrel and light rails makes no sense either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My take on this? Fewer excuses for an IDPA-er to *not* play in this division. I don't fully understand IDPA equipment rules - but I believe the provisional division rules fairly close matches what's allowed in the service pistol divisions, there, right?? Basically - you can't shoot the SS division with equipment that would give you *any* advantage over the IDPA equipment rules - if I understand things correctly....

I understand Gary's point re: this not being protectionism - you could view it either way, I suppose, depending on your view point. There's strong enough evidence, though, to show that there's a market segment for these pistols, all nostalgia set aside. I'll leave the debate about whether adding another division is wise to other folks , and will settle for empirical evidence after the three year period....

[Gary Stevens]

Hi Jim,

The EZ Winscore program is not modified yet to accept an upload, but not input the data into the classification data bank. It will be announced when it is. Remember this is not set to officially kick off until 1-1-06.

Yes you are correct that the highest classification on file is "assigned". When the program is modified you will be able to upload a 1911 classifier, which will be counted for statistical data, but will not be entered into the classification data base at this time. So when we get ready to do the upload part, don't call it something that it isn't, just send it in as a 1911 classifier.

I know this is a little confusing at this point, but I am sure it will shake out in a short time.

Thanks

[alma]

It looks to me more like a place designed for people who put down $3000 on a hand made gun and who want a reason to take it out of the safe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My friend has been shooting the same $500 Kimber in L10 for the past three years. With this new division this gun would be as competetive as any other gun on the market, even the $3000 + ones.

[bufit323]

I would have been less opposed to a single stack division  where other toys  like SIG220 could have participated.

Further, the exclusion of cone barrel and light rails makes no sense either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My take on this? Fewer excuses for an IDPA-er to *not* play in this division. I don't fully understand IDPA equipment rules - but I believe the provisional division rules fairly close matches what's allowed in the service pistol divisions, there, right?? Basically - you can't shoot the SS division with equipment that would give you *any* advantage over the IDPA equipment rules - if I understand things correctly....

I understand Gary's point re: this not being protectionism - you could view it either way, I suppose, depending on your view point. There's strong enough evidence, though, to show that there's a market segment for these pistols, all nostalgia set aside. I'll leave the debate about whether adding another division is wise to other folks , and will settle for empirical evidence after the three year period....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was my understanding that the Sig P220 was allowed in the IDPA division in question (though the recently banned the 220ST, since EL whooped a bunch of folks with it)

[Duane Thomas]

I think we may be about to enter a second Golden Age of USPSA sponsorship, both for certain individual shooters and the sport as a whole. Think about it, in the past few years we've seen Glock, CZ and Smith & Wesson step up to the plate and factory sponsor shooters. Why? Because of the new Production division, of course. Previously it made no sense for the factories to sponsor USPSA, or give anyone a factory ride, because none of their guns were really competitive - or at least perceived to be that way - in any of the existent divisions. That's no longer the case. And, while it's really cool to have Team CZ, think what it could mean to the sport to have Team Kimber, Team Springfield, etc., etc. (insert name of a company making factory 1911s).

[AikiDale]

This isnt a case of " trying different things" its a case of trying the same old things after they have been outclassed by other gear (or at least perceived to have been outclassed). It is protectionism.

How can we say we are trying new things if we mandate that the division doesnt allow for anything which wasnt available 20 years ago?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vlad,

With all respect I think you and several others have missed the point. Please do not think of this as a personal attack. I know you will understand I am supporting Gary's experiment here and not engaging in ad hominum attacks.

If I understand Gary's intentions correctly the point of this division is marketing not protectionism or innovation. Put what ever you want on a gun and shoot Open. Want a double action wonder nine? Shoot Production. Want a notch and post sighted weapon without a compensator? Shoot Limited or L-10. With all these divisions there is a lot of room for technological advancement and experimentation.

Now lets reframe the observation. Suppose you had a shooting organization which had met the needs of the serious sport shooter and had produced the best shooters in the world. Suppose you wanted to grow and saw a HUGE market for the traditional Government Model 1911. It's not just for Colt anymore. Many people shoot them in L-10, but in the mind of the new or non-competitive shooter it takes a Hi-Cap .40 to be competitive in Limited and the same gun loaded down to 10 rounds to be competitive in L-10. Rob Leatham doesn't shoot a single stack .45 in Open, or Limited or Limited-10 even if he could do pretty well with one, he, like most other competitive shooters, uses the best tool for the job.

From a Marketing perspective, it makes a whole lot of sense to provide a place for the millions of us who have and enjoy shooting old slab sides. Is it old technololgy? Yep. Have the competitive shooters of the World improved on the original when it comes to Hit Factor? Yep. Will it make organizational growth and marketing sense to provide a place for this ancient technology? Yep. It's a cult dude! If you must, think of it like IROC racing. With the guns pretty much frozen it takes the gun out of the equation and puts it back on the shooter but that is nothing more than a side benefit.

Put another way, it is not so much about the gun as it is about the FUN. Fun sells! It is a cruel fact of nature that an organization grows or dies. Nature will not allow you to just stand still and enjoy life. This fun new division has the potential to grow the sport by expanding our numbers to many who would have the perception of being outgunned whether they were or not if they had to play in the big pool.

We could just have one division and let everyone shoot whatever they wanted heads up. I think it makes sense in the long run for USPSA to be an umbrella organization which sets standards for several related sports. In the horse world there is the United States Equestrian Federation. It oversees Dressage, Hunter-Jumper, Cross Country, Eventing and Reigning competitions for example.

I submit each of our divisions is a separate sport. There is such a gap between Revolver and Open for example it really is a shame to shoot them on the same course of fire. May be why we now have ICORE. Multi-Gun and 3 Gun are evolving the same way. Rather than try to hold everything back we need to expand, open up and accept the natural growth of these sports and provide safe, well organized and fun venues for them.

[/soap box] Damn that was long winded.

[SteveZ]

....but in the mind of the new or non-competitive shooter it takes a Hi-Cap .40 to be competitive in Limited and the same gun loaded down to 10 rounds to be competitive in L-10. 

That certainly isn't the case here in the PNW. We've had many new shooters show up recently shooting their single stack guns in L10...and to be honest....L10 is dominated (and won) by single stacks around here.

Rob Leatham doesn't shoot a single stack .45 in Open, or Limited or Limited-10 even if he could do pretty well with one, he, like most other competitive shooters, uses the best tool for the job.

you might want to check your data on that one. Last time I heard...Rob was shooting a long slide 1911 single stack in 45ACP for L10. He may have changed...but I'd guess Springfield would probably prefer he shot the single stack in L10.

[AikiDale]

You're right Steven, and thank you. TGO does use a SS .45 in L-10 and CDP for that matter. And I do seem to recall reading in these pages the SS is quite the weapon of choice in some regions for L-10 even though it is not around here as popular as some other configurations.

I just hate it when I am not perfect the first time around. Must get an editor....

[Flexmoney]

All the better that y'all have someplace to hide. I'd just kick your ass with my Glock anyway!

Ya bunch of wussies.

[JohnRodriguez]

I submit each of our divisions is a separate sport. There is such a gap between Revolver and Open for example it really is a shame to shoot them on the same course of fire.

Is is a shame or do use revolver shooters just embarrass the rest of the divisions? I wish one of the higher ups would support the revolver division and let use run our 8-shots without being stuck in open (and don't tell me I can run my 8-shot, just not shoot it past the 6th shot without reloading crap)

[Nemo]

Muchas gracias Don Gary!! Your effort if greatly appreciated. This provisional division is the reason I got my new SA/Canyon Creek 45!!!

Can't wait!

[Jim Norman]

Here is an idea...

How about the SS division which is I think an 8-shot division allowing all of the 7 & 8 shot revolvers in? Maybe instead of SS it should be called Stock-8, minor detailing only, sort of a Major PF allowed Production division.

Jim

[Vlad]

This isnt a case of " trying different things" its a case of trying the same old things after they have been outclassed by other gear (or at least perceived to have been outclassed). It is protectionism.

How can we say we are trying new things if we mandate that the division doesnt allow for anything which wasnt available 20 years ago?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vlad,

With all respect I think you and several others have missed the point. Please do not think of this as a personal attack. I know you will understand I am supporting Gary's experiment here and not engaging in ad hominum attacks.

Oh no problem. I think we should be able to disagree with each other.

Now, if this is nothing but a marketing move, then I'm ok with it. But then its a bad one anyway because of the feature limitations. ALL the big name 1911 manufacturers offer cone barrels, rails, and whatnot. And they are really pushing those features. If this is a marketing vehicle and then should make sure it matches the market.

[SteveZ]

If this is just a "marketing move" then my real question is....why wasn't any "marketing" put into promoting Limited 10 (which already stands as a vehicle to promote single stacks)?

That is what I'd really like to know!!!!!

[Jake Di Vita]

Guys....the damn thing has already been decided...how about we all just shut up and quit speculating and see where it goes....we can analyze the hell out of it once we have hard data.

[XRe]

how about we all just shut up and quit speculating and see where it goes...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cause we'd lose our classification as an "Internet Forum" if we did *that* :lol:

[Alan Meek]

Jake,

I totally agree.

Gary,

Thanks for taking the initiative on this division. I do want to acknowledge the approach of having this as a provisional division for the period of 3 years with a sufficient time to ramp up before Jan 1 2006 is the ideal approach. Finally someone (that is you Gary) has approached the creation of a new division correctly and did not approach this division as prior BOD's which was a reactionary approach to implementing new divisions.

Good Work Gary!

Now to the nay sayers the decision has been made we have three years to participate, evaluate and analyze then make any refinements at the end of three years or abiolish the provisional division if it does not make the grade.

Alan Meek

(I am seriously considering participating in this provisional divison)

[AikiDale]

Guys....the damn thing has already been decided...how about we all just shut up and quit speculating and see where it goes....we can analyze the hell out of it once we have hard data.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose you want to get back to discussing El Prez?

[et45]

Great job Gary. Now if we could use our standard capacity(formerly hicap) mags in Production.

[Flexmoney]

Muchas gracias Don Gary!!  Your effort if greatly appreciated.  This provisional division is the reason I got my new SA/Canyon Creek 45!!!

Can't wait!

Why wait? Go shoot Limited 10...right now. Your gun fits in that division perfectly.

If this is just a "marketing move" then my real question is....why wasn't any "marketing" put into promoting Limited 10 (which already stands as a vehicle to promote single stacks)?

Valid question.

I have been doing so as much as possible in the Ohio Section. Mostly by good word of mouth.

The largest Ohio club had 14 shooters in Limited 10 last month. Of the top eight, seven shoot a 1911, one shot a Glock (I would guess a large portion of the rest did as well, I just don't know for sure without digging deeper).

----------------

[Nemo]

Why wait?  Go shoot Limited 10...right now.  Your gun fits in that division perfectly.

Flex,

For L10 I'd rather use my STI. Not that it would make much of a difference if I used a single stack since my mag changes suck!! But the provisional 1911 division, at least for me, will have a very high FUN factor as well as the nostalgia associated with it.

It's all about the fun anyway... Isn't it?

[Duane Thomas]

But then its a bad one anyway because of the feature limitations. ALL the big name 1911 manufacturers offer cone barrels, rails, and whatnot.

All the big name 1911 makers do offer some models with cone barrels, rails and whatnot. But the backbone of their lines, the vast majority of models, are bushing barrels without rails. Even above that, the reason those features are excluded is to avoid an equipment race, the perception that you've just GOT to have a heavy barrel, heavy frame gun to be competitive. We want people to pull their standard configuration 1911s out of their gun safes, come to a USPSA match, and see the people against whom they're competing armed with guns of the same configuration.

[alma]

Gary,

Are bull barrels ok to use?

And does IDPA allow bull barrels for the 9mm 1911s or is it bushing only?

[jkelly]

We want people to pull their standard configuration 1911s out of their gun safes, come to a USPSA match,...---Duane Thomas

Duane are you on the BoD or how were you involved in setting up "The 1911 Provisional Division"?

I like the thought of shooting my CDP gun with IPSC rules, cool very cool indeed!

Respectfully,

jkelly

[alma]

Gary,

Are bull barrels ok to use?

And does IDPA allow bull barrels for the 9mm 1911s or is it bushing only?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can anyone answer this?

I just want to say that I am really excited about the prospects of this division. I think that those of you out there who have to shoot Open or Limited so that you feel competitive on the overall final results just would not understand. Right now, I shoot production exclusively and I really enjoy it. I am looking forward to single stack division too.

I have always wanted a SS 1911 but up to this point I would never buy one for L10 because I know that a 2011 would be the gun to have for L10.

You will not be competitive with the limited or open class guns with only 8 rounds. If you can get over that fact I think you can have a lot of fun shooting a classic gun with simple gear.

Thanks again for the hard work to “rock the boat” and make this happen!