is there calibration for a popper that activates a prop?

[Sandbagger123]

we had a popper activated prop yesterday. we had a guy shoot it and it did not go down thus not activating the prop. i thought these were REF and a reshoot was given. people on another squad said that it need to shot for calibration. Never heard of such a thing. So if it was shot and it went down, how would the shooter be scored?

[CZinZA]

If it went down and the prop didn't activate, then that would be REF.

If it didn't fall, then I think calibration is the right call

Sent by Jedi mind control

[ChuckS]

we had a popper activated prop yesterday. we had a guy shoot it and it did not go down thus not activating the prop. i thought these were REF and a reshoot was given. people on another squad said that it need to shot for calibration. Never heard of such a thing. So if it was shot and it went down, how would the shooter be scored?

If it falls, the shooter would get a mike for the popper and mikes and FTSA procedurals for any targets that weren't activated. For example, the popper activates one 2-round swinging target, the scoring outcome wold be 3 mikes, 1 FTSA, and of course, the 15 possible points that were given up. Big gamble not to drive it down!

[ktm300]

For a popper at a level 1 we get someone with minor power factor ammo to shoot the popper from the same spot the shooter shot it from and hit it in the scoring zone. If it goes down, then you score the stage as shot, if not is is a reshoot. There are some more rules about what to do if it misses etc.

LII and up the RM has special low power ammo but the idea is the same. If it goes down score as shot, if not reshoot.

[Sandbagger123]

ok. i see. what happened was after the shooter drilled a couple of rounds dead center into the popper the RO said stop. in this situation its a auto reshoot correct? So as usual in this course do not stop unless told to do so.

[Edge40]

we had a popper activated prop yesterday. we had a guy shoot it and it did not go down thus not activating the prop. i thought these were REF and a reshoot was given. people on another squad said that it need to shot for calibration. Never heard of such a thing. So if it was shot and it went down, how would the shooter be scored?

If it falls, the shooter would get a mike for the popper and mikes and FTSA procedurals for any targets that weren't activated. For example, the popper activates one 2-round swinging target, the scoring outcome wold be 3 mikes, 1 FTSA, and of course, the 15 possible points that were given up. Big gamble not to drive it down!

This is it.

[bret]

we had a popper activated prop yesterday. we had a guy shoot it and it did not go down thus not activating the prop. i thought these were REF and a reshoot was given. people on another squad said that it need to shot for calibration. Never heard of such a thing. So if it was shot and it went down, how would the shooter be scored?

If it falls, or could not fall all the way and the prop failed to activate, it is a reshoot, no calibration shot required.

If it is shot but fails to fail, if it was hit in the calibration zone, it is subject to a calibration challenge.

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

[motosapiens]

ok. i see. what happened was after the shooter drilled a couple of rounds dead center into the popper the RO said stop. in this situation its a auto reshoot correct? So as usual in this course do not stop unless told to do so.

yes, automatic reshoot for RO interference (or the RO's judgement call of REF). At a local match this is not all that unheard of since people don't always pay attention when they are setting up poppers. I've gotten into the habit of physically checking and setting the poppers if necessary if we are the first squad to shoot the stage.

You will here some purists who never make mistakes argue that the RO should not make such a call, but I think it's poor sportsmanship to screw over a shooter just because someone didn't do their job in setup.

[motosapiens]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

[ChuckS]

ok. i see. what happened was after the shooter drilled a couple of rounds dead center into the popper the RO said stop. in this situation its a auto reshoot correct? So as usual in this course do not stop unless told to do so.

Yeah. since the RO said "stop", it would be a re-shoot. I have seen activator cables set incorrectly hold up poppers but I would not, as an RO, stop a shooter because they center punched the circle with one shot. It could of been a sub-PF round. Can't really tell. But, if a shooter goes to war with the popper and hits the thing multiple times, I would probably stop them. Personally, the only time I will stop myself is for safety reasons; possible squib, white shirt guy down range, etc...

[bret]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

If it's not painted how do you know first certain it was hit in the calibration zone?

Had a stage yesterday, open shooter hit the activator 4 times in the calibration zone, 2 quick double taps, I stopped him when the activator was leaning, had the steel not been painted we wouldn't know for certain where the steel was hit.

If it's an edge hit, or above or below the calibration zone, not subject to a calibration challenge.

I have shot matches where the steel was not painted between Shooters and they couldn't call for a calibration challenge.

I will look for the rule on calibration challenges.

[ChuckS]

If it is shot but fails to fail, if it was hit in the calibration zone, it is subject to a calibration challenge.

I am curious. If you are talking about the competitor shooting the popper, what rule links the underlined statement to the cal challenge? I am not finding it for the competitor.

Later,

Chuck

[motosapiens]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

If it's not painted how do you know first certain it was hit in the calibration zone?

it doesn't have to be hit in the calibration zone. it just has to be hit, even a crappy low edge hit.

[bret]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

4.3.1.7

[bret]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

If it's not painted how do you know first certain it was hit in the calibration zone?

it doesn't have to be hit in the calibration zone. it just has to be hit, even a crappy low edge hit.

4.3.1.6 says evidence of a hit.

I was mistaken thought it had to be hit in the calibration zone.

This and rule 4.3.1.7 is why steel should be painted between shooters.

[motosapiens]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

4.3.1.7

that only applies to level 2 and up matches, which you can see if you read the following paragraph.

also note that rule has nothing whatsoever to do with calibration. it's saying that if you accidentally forget to paint a popper, a shooter can't call for a reshoot solely on the basis of the unpainted target.

4.3.1.7.1Level 1 matches are encouraged to paint after each competitor but are not required to do so. Poppers that are not repainted between shooters can be challenged for calibration, unless the RO determines that the popper was not hit.

there is no charge for this educational service.

note that our club doesn't paint between shooters for local matches, and i am only aware of one instance over the years where a fast open shooter tried to argue that he hit a target and wanted a calibration.

Edited June 6, 2016 by motosapiens

[Sandbagger123]

i think there was just some confusion from the new squad as to exactly what happened. they probably did not know that the shooter was stopped by the RO and assumed the shooter had finished the course, thus their insistance that calibration was correct. Couple that the RO's were less expereinced then them they assumed they were correct being more seasoned rO's and calibrated it. did not go down and the shooter got a reshoot.

[Sarge]

If it went down and the prop didn't activate, then that would be REF.

If it didn't fall, then I think calibration is the right call

Sent by Jedi mind control

Correct. A popper is a popper. If it's hit and does not fall it is subject to the same calibration rules.

THE ONLY EXCEPTION I can think of is when a cable is too tight and actually prevents the steel from falling. This happens a few times a year that I see. There must be enough slack to allow the popper to start falling and use momentum to trip the mover. This would be REF

[bret]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

4.3.1.7

that only applies to level 2 and up matches, which you can see if you read the following paragraph.

also note that rule has nothing whatsoever to do with calibration. it's saying that if you accidentally forget to paint a popper, a shooter can't call for a reshoot solely on the basis of the unpainted target.

4.3.1.7.1Level 1 matches are encouraged to paint after each competitor but are not required to do so. Poppers that are not repainted between shooters can be challenged for calibration, unless the RO determines that the popper was not hit.

there is no charge for this educational service.

note that our club doesn't paint between shooters for local matches, and i am only aware of one instance over the years where a fast open shooter tried to argue that he hit a target and wanted a calibration.

Original post didn't say level 1 match.

How do you know it's a level 1 match?

[Sarge]

Jesus, the amount of confusion on the rules in this thread is astounding

[motosapiens]

This is why steel needs to be painted before each shooter, if it's not painted between Shooters they can't call for a calibration challenge.

I disagree with this statement. I think it's more the opposite.... it becomes very difficult for the RO to claim you missed the steel entirely if it's not painted. although in my experience, usually everyone on the squad sees and hears the hit.

4.3.1.7

that only applies to level 2 and up matches, which you can see if you read the following paragraph.

also note that rule has nothing whatsoever to do with calibration. it's saying that if you accidentally forget to paint a popper, a shooter can't call for a reshoot solely on the basis of the unpainted target.

4.3.1.7.1Level 1 matches are encouraged to paint after each competitor but are not required to do so. Poppers that are not repainted between shooters can be challenged for calibration, unless the RO determines that the popper was not hit.

there is no charge for this educational service.

note that our club doesn't paint between shooters for local matches, and i am only aware of one instance over the years where a fast open shooter tried to argue that he hit a target and wanted a calibration.

Original post didn't say level 1 match.

How do you know it's a level 1 match?

it doesn't matter. read the rules again carefully and think about them.

Poppers that are not repainted between shooters can be challenged for calibration, unless the RO determines that the popper was not hit.

If a level 2 or higher match is not painting steel, that is bad, but not grounds to screw shooters over. it just puts the onus on the RO to determine whether the target was hit or not (anywhere, not just in the calibration zone).

Edited June 6, 2016 by motosapiens

[bret]

If it went down and the prop didn't activate, then that would be REF.

If it didn't fall, then I think calibration is the right call

Sent by Jedi mind control

Correct. A popper is a popper. If it's hit and does not fall it is subject to the same calibration rules.

THE ONLY EXCEPTION I can think of is when a cable is too tight and actually prevents the steel from falling. This happens a few times a year that I see. There must be enough slack to allow the popper to start falling and use momentum to trip the mover. This would be REF

Happens on max traps that are improperly set, mud or dirt gets in the clip, the cable gets hung up, etc.

it is not unusual to see this happen.

[bret]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

[Sarge]

If it went down and the prop didn't activate, then that would be REF.

If it didn't fall, then I think calibration is the right call

Sent by Jedi mind control

Correct. A popper is a popper. If it's hit and does not fall it is subject to the same calibration rules.

THE ONLY EXCEPTION I can think of is when a cable is too tight and actually prevents the steel from falling. This happens a few times a year that I see. There must be enough slack to allow the popper to start falling and use momentum to trip the mover. This would be REF

Happens on max traps that are improperly set, mud or dirt gets in the clip, the cable gets hung up, etc.

it is not unusual to see this happen.

Ah yes, that too.

[motosapiens]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

sounds about right, but.......... it seems to me a properly set forward falling popper should eventually fall no matter how many times you shoot it. It should just take longer.