Alternatives to Apex barrels?

[optimator]

How do the Wilson, KKM or Storm Lake barrels compare to the Apex?

[TacticalReload]

My understanding is that they all have similar geometry to the OEM barrel, meaning that the improvements that you see with the Apex barrel that are due to increased dwell time won't necessarily be present. That being said, I'm guessing that all those barrels are to some degree better quality than stock so they probably can't hurt anything. From what I've seen online, some people report improvements and others do not.

[optimator]

I figured as much. I got into my M&P 9 Pro for $480, so it won't really bother me to buy a better barrel for it. I'm just waiting to hear back from my gunsmith on the fitting charges.

[munsonbw]

I assume you have tested your gun? While there are clearly guns that shoot far worse than acceptable accuracy, not all are bad.

[S&W686]

I have used KKM barrels on most of my M&P's and Glocks. They drop right in without any fitting and work very well. No problems.

[want2race]

I'm testing the factory barrel stock vs. welded up. My Apex barrel just arrived yesterday so I'm going to test that compared to stock, then I'll see if I can get similar accuracy with the modified barrel.

[Kaldor]

I had a 1 dot barrel in my 5" Pro. Accuracy was poor. Bought a KKM for it, accuracy improved, shrinking groups by about a 1/3. I will be buying an Apex as I really like the M&P platform, but the accuracy issues are a big turn off for me.

[optimator]

I assume you have tested your gun? While there are clearly guns that shoot far worse than acceptable accuracy, not all are bad.

I haven't shot it off a bag yet. But compared to my CZ, past 15 yards it shoots patterns, not groups.

[TacticalReload]

I assume you have tested your gun? While there are clearly guns that shoot far worse than acceptable accuracy, not all are bad.

I haven't shot it off a bag yet. But compared to my CZ, past 15 yards it shoots patterns, not groups.

Geez. I would absolutely LOVE to lock every M&P off the line for a whole year into a ransom rest and fire a full mag at 25 yards. I bet the high, low, average, and standard deviation would be enough to set the interwebs ablaze.

[optimator]

I actually really like the pistol. And with mag extensions, spare mags, holsters etc, I'm pretty committed to it.

[TacticalReload]

With the money I had to dump into it to get it to run right, I'm pretty committed to it at this point, too.

[optimator]

I got it new for a great price. And everything I've bought so far I could always just sell. But I really would rather just make it work. As of right now it's only for 3 gun. I shot it in a match a couple of weeks ago and it did just fine. BUT, when I do miss I like to know that it's me and not the gun. It looks like the Apex barrels turn these guns into a very accurate pistol. So I'll probably just go ahead and do it.

[brownnutz]

I'm testing the factory barrel stock vs. welded up. My Apex barrel just arrived yesterday so I'm going to test that compared to stock, then I'll see if I can get similar accuracy with the modified barrel.

If you get pics on groups from a rest that would be AWESOME!

[TacticalReload]

I got it new for a great price. And everything I've bought so far I could always just sell. But I really would rather just make it work. As of right now it's only for 3 gun. I shot it in a match a couple of weeks ago and it did just fine. BUT, when I do miss I like to know that it's me and not the gun. It looks like the Apex barrels turn these guns into a very accurate pistol. So I'll probably just go ahead and do it.

Yeah, I would... especially if you're having problems grouping with the factory gun. Of course, just because Apex can make it right doesn't, IMO, let S&W off the hook for making it wrong in the first place. I think the perspective is different on this forum since we are all used to dumping sizable amounts of money into guns, regardless of if they are problematic or not. The general gun-buying public (or the LE market) doesn't have that luxury (or aren't willing to).

I think you'll be quite pleased with the Apex barrel. The M&P + (mandatory, IMO) Apex parts really does end up being a nice platform... definitely feels better in the hand than any Glock I've used.

I'm testing the factory barrel stock vs. welded up. My Apex barrel just arrived yesterday so I'm going to test that compared to stock, then I'll see if I can get similar accuracy with the modified barrel.

If you get pics on groups from a rest that would be AWESOME!

I'd really like to see this three-way comparison myself!

[want2race]

I'll post pics tonight. Shot the Apex barrel today. Lockup is tight, if I lower the slide slowly it will hang open just like a tight 1911. Only had to remove .002" from the hood and the chamber is perfect. Did not require reamer. Bottom lug was oversized, as it should be. Cut it until the lock up was just a hair too tight, then lapped it in. I shot from a supported freestyle position. Hands on a sandbag, standing. Using 100gr compressed copper factory ammo at 20y, 5 shots at 1.1". Best I could do at 25y was 1.583 something inches. Easily within my margin of error. From a Ransom I can see groups being even smaller. For me, that is over 100% improvement in accuracy.

As for welding up the stocker. It's quite involved. Cam down ramp has to be modified to allow for the delayed unlocking. I'll get it done and test it, but unless you can personally weld and recut it.... not worth it.

[want2race]

[want2race]

I think the left shots are me. I'll continue testing with other bullets weights but this is the ammo that shoots the best from my Bianchi 1911, my 5" 1911 also likes it. These were shot indoors, which I historically suffer with. Kind of dark. I do better with natural light. Still, way better than it was. I'm impressed with this barrel. This was a gunsmith fit and it went in pretty easy.

Edited April 30, 2016 by want2race

[mpeltier]

I got it new for a great price. And everything I've bought so far I could always just sell. But I really would rather just make it work. As of right now it's only for 3 gun. I shot it in a match a couple of weeks ago and it did just fine. BUT, when I do miss I like to know that it's me and not the gun. It looks like the Apex barrels turn these guns into a very accurate pistol. So I'll probably just go ahead and do it.

Yeah, I would... especially if you're having problems grouping with the factory gun. Of course, just because Apex can make it right doesn't, IMO, let S&W off the hook for making it wrong in the first place. I think the perspective is different on this forum since we are all used to dumping sizable amounts of money into guns, regardless of if they are problematic or not. The general gun-buying public (or the LE market) doesn't have that luxury (or aren't willing to).

I think you'll be quite pleased with the Apex barrel. The M&P + (mandatory, IMO) Apex parts really does end up being a nice platform... definitely feels better in the hand than any Glock I've used.

I'm testing the factory barrel stock vs. welded up. My Apex barrel just arrived yesterday so I'm going to test that compared to stock, then I'll see if I can get similar accuracy with the modified barrel.

If you get pics on groups from a rest that would be AWESOME!

I'd really like to see this three-way comparison myself!

Good points, especially the letting S&W off the hook comment. They are presumably entering this pistol in the military trials for the modular handgun competition. If they don't fit Apex barrels I see them being bumped out for the accuracy issues pretty quick. Doubtful the military trial will "Let them off the hook". I think the requirement is 4" at 50 yds.

Actually S&W is most certainly aware of whats going on here. Their not blind or stupid. I own and have owned several other S&W centerfire handguns over the years. The 6906 I currently own is a very accurate pistol and the barrel stays locked up to the slide for a much greater distance than the factory M&P barrel does. They certainly know how to make an accurate pistol. I would like to see a factory barrel get welded up and recut in the locking lug only area and see what that alone achieves.

Edited April 30, 2016 by mpeltier

[munsonbw]

mpeltier, all,

I also believe S&W are very well aware of what is going on. In fact, before I bought mine I called them and asked for tech support. I asked some general questions then hit him with the accuracy question. His response was something on the order of blaming the internet for propagating myths or something of the sort. I have no doubt that the people on this board who have accuracy issues do have issues with the gun and not them. Too many before and after examples. What I am not sure of is why when people send their gun back S&W responds with the statement "nothing is wrong". It is certainly not uncommon for a manufacturer to silently correct issues, but to pretend that a gun that shoots 8" groups is OK when the tech guy himself stated the gun should shoot 3-4" at 25yd is hard to understand.

TacticalReload,

Let us know how your gun shoots after you get it back from S&W. I wonder if they fixed something and are claiming they didn't? I cannot imagine that to be an effective strategy, but who knows.

Ben

[TacticalReload]

I definitely will let people know how it goes. However, I will recognize if the original barrel and slide are still intact so I'm pretty sure I'll be able to tell 2 seconds after opening the box how it's going to shoot. Part of me wants to get rid of my M&Ps out of spite, but that would be stupid. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater in a way that would not affect S&W one bit is going to hurt no one but me. I can also just keep shouting from the mountaintops about my experience with them but people tend to tune out whiners. I guess the best I can do is post up the full play-by-play and let people seeking out the info learn from my experiences, and if anyone asks, I'll let them know what I think.

[zhuk]

Alas, for those competitors not in the US, aftermarket barrels for IPSC Production are a no-go. My best mate is currently struggling with this, after shelling out over 1 grand on a Pro (to replace his 15 yr old 9L which has had more than 70K rounds through it)

As a MG shooter, he can get 4" groups at 20m but really needs to be able to get under 2" at his capability/skill level. All he can do is play with grain weights/loads etc...has tried other barrels from the importer, only a bare improvement. From what I've read, the dwell-time/slide-frame fit is a factor too but its a damn lottery on which gun you get if it works OK or not. As a C grade shooter I could even get a 2-3" group at 20 with another guy's newer 9L (whereas mine is the old twist-rate)

Just sucks that not only do we in Australia have to pay so much for firearms, but can't take the logical step of improving the M&P series if they are found wanting.

Apologies for the venting, guys....just so pissed off for my mate.

/rant over!

[TacticalReload]

That does suck. If we had the same issue here, I'd flat out just avoid buying an M&P unless it was used and the seller would allow me to try it first.

[zhuk]

Cheers, Tactical.

Yeah it was really the outstanding performance of the other guy's new 9L which clinched his decision (that guy was D grade at the time he got it, and we couldn't believe how well it shot compared to our 18" twist barrels). Little did we realise what a marked difference there would be between individual guns...were just going on the "new twist rate ala Glocks/CZs is what makes the difference". Uh, no it doesn't lol

Unfortunately, try-before-you-buy isn't really an option, unless it happens to be another shooter in your club selling. The handgun-owning population here is so small (only 3% of firearm owners overall shoot pistols, and we are legally confined to sport/competition usage only) they just aren't around in US-type quantities.

[TacticalReload]

Even in the US, it's not common to find someone who will let you shoot a gun before you buy it unless you have a prior relationship. If I didn't have the option to put an Apex barrel into my PC gun, I would have sold it -- even if it meant a loss of 50% of the value of the gun. It was *that* inaccurate so the gun would be basically useless... I have no need for a pistol that can't even hold an A-zone head shot at 7 yards or C-zone shots at 25 yards. I'm not sure what to suggest for him other than cut his losses and let it go. Of course, I have no idea what it takes to purchase or sell handguns down under.

[zhuk]

No worries mate.

As you might guess, things are pretty different down here...you want a gun, its get sent a $30 permit to acquire application from the Firearms Registry (aka police), mail it back completed/endorsed by a club official for the discipline you intend using it, then about 4 weeks later receive said Permit - now you can go to your dealer (all transactions must go through a licensed gun shop/dealer even if they are private purchases). You must use it within 3 months or you do your 30 quid and must apply for another. Nice lil earner for the Govt all round heh.

Its really the relative scarcity of available guns secondhand which is the issue, and the seller might also be too far to travel to (or in another State), plus you've only got a certain amount of time to utilise the Permit before it lapses. I knew no one who owned an M&P before I bought mine, so couldn't try one out...just went on grip-feel alone.

But I guess at least we can still own handguns (for now), unlike the UK...though there is the possibility that won't always be the case into the future.

Edited May 1, 2016 by zhuk