New Stages Idea

[ZackJones]

I wanted to toss this idea out to see what you guys thought about it. At our match yesterday I setup speed option and outer limits but instead of putting the plates out to 35 yards I set them at 25 yards. All remaining plates were placed per the stage diagrams. I ran these an unofficial stages, of course. The feedback I received from the shooters was all positive. I know not all clubs can support 35 yard setups (we can only support it in one bay) but we can support the 25 yard setup.

Do you think adding these stages to steel challenge would be a good idea? Does the range where you shoot run speed option and outer limits on a regular basis? Assuming we could get the short versions of these stages approved would you want them to count towards classification or only for overall ranking like we use for speed option and outer limits now? My preference would be to include them for classification purposes. FWIW I shot each stage in CO, RFPO, RFRO and PCC. It was a ton of fun and I'm thinking it would help those shooters that can't run speed option and outer limits to have an opportunity to shoot very similar stages in preparation for the larger matches.

Thanks in advance for your feedback both pro and con.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Has some advantages - have to rename them - can't call them SP and OL -

Maybe SP Short and OL Short?

[scottlep]

Maybe find the formula to scale them properly. Meaning scale the targets and distances so visually it appears the same as the full size stage. So that way if a shooter is used to shooting the scaled version on smaller ranges that will translate to the full scale stages at larger matches. I have actually done this for Speed Option on my home range where I practice and it works well.

[ZackJones]

Has some advantages - have to rename them - can't call them SP and OL -

Maybe SP Short and OL Short?

Agreed we'd new names. I called them OLS (Outer Limits Short) and SOS (Speed Option Short).

[ZackJones]

Maybe find the formula to scale them properly. Meaning scale the targets and distances so visually it appears the same as the full size stage. So that way if a shooter is used to shooting the scaled version on smaller ranges that will translate to the full scale stages at larger matches. I have actually done this for Speed Option on my home range where I practice and it works well.

Wouldn't that require custom sized steel?

[scottlep]

Maybe find the formula to scale them properly. Meaning scale the targets and distances so visually it appears the same as the full size stage. So that way if a shooter is used to shooting the scaled version on smaller ranges that will translate to the full scale stages at larger matches. I have actually done this for Speed Option on my home range where I practice and it works well.

Wouldn't that require custom sized steel?

Yep. Or figure out how to make it work with the steel on hand. For Speed Option the only plate I had to change was the stop plate. Had to bring it forward and to the center of the bay a bit since it wouldn't fit in the bay I use. I had a friend who is way better than me at math figure out how to use a 12x18 plate I had instead of an 18x24. But if you had to buy steel, a 12x18 is going to be much cheaper than an 18x24 anyway.

[RickT]

I run a small match on a cowboy range only 15 yards deep. Easy to set up a spreadsheet to scale back to 15 yards with an "inner limit" of 8 yards. We don't have any scaled rectangular targets, but use 8", 10" and 12" rounds. I've made the targets a bit easier to start and when my wife and I practice we use more realistic sizes, 8" for Five to Go, for example. There's a lot of support from the range owner: steel, 2x4's, etc. Sample stage setups are attached. It's really only the stages with 35 yard targets that don't scale well - tends to bring in the near targets closer than 7 or 8 yards so the god's eye view gets a bit distorted; still, the angles are all correct. No complaints from the shooters; we use two bays and use surveyor whiskers to mark the stage changes.

CVC SC Stage Drawings, v0 (20160413).pdf

[drysideshooter]

I shot SC for quite a few years and now shoot, and am the MD for a ISSA steel shoot. I am fortunate that our home range has 13 very good sized bays, with some of them being absolutely huge. An advantage of ISSA is there isn't a set list of stages and it offers more flexibility for a wider variety of ranges to be able to hold matches. The ISSA has guidelines for maximum distances for common plate sizes.

You do lose the ability to compare your times to folks all over the country for set, standard stages and I know that is a big deal for some folks. For our club, and the couple other clubs in our area that quite holding SC matches and switched to ISSA, the shooters are really enjoying the wide variety of stages. Instead of getting grooved on the mechanics of 8 stages it introduces a little more problem solving with having to decide the probable fastest way to shoot a stage you have never shot before. We are seeing more crossover from USPSA, Cowboy and 3-Gun shooters than we did with SC.

[b1gcountry]

The drawback to the scaled steel is that is extra plates the range needs to buy. It is also impossible to get the heights exactly right because it depends on how tall the shooter is.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[scottlep]

It is also impossible to get the heights exactly right because it depends on how tall the shooter is.

Huh? On Steel Challenge stages, the height of a target is measured in relationship from the shooters box and has nothing to do with how tall a shooter is. Also, the target height would be adjusted by changing the length of the board, not by changing the size of the target.

[RickT]

It is also impossible to get the heights exactly right because it depends on how tall the shooter is.

Huh? On Steel Challenge stages, the height of a target is measured in relationship from the shooters box and has nothing to do with how tall a shooter is. Also, the target height would be adjusted by changing the length of the board, not by changing the size of the target.

While I agree with b1gcountry, scaled stages are better than no stages at all. My wife and I are the only shooters at our scaled down match that have actually shot SCSA matches and we'll live with not being able to refine our muscle memory to two decimal points. I'm 6' so I suspect my eyes are sitting around 68". A 5' target moved to 1/2 the distance would have to grow to 64" to present the same sight line if your keeping the top of the target at the same angle. Look at Five to Go: the center of the four targets are probably 55" off the ground so unless your eyeballs are exactly at that "altitude" you're either shooting uphill or downhill (slightly). Us average shooters have a lot more moving parts to worry about.

[b1gcountry]

It is also impossible to get the heights exactly right because it depends on how tall the shooter is.

Huh? On Steel Challenge stages, the height of a target is measured in relationship from the shooters box and has nothing to do with how tall a shooter is. Also, the target height would be adjusted by changing the length of the board, not by changing the size of the target.

It's like rick said. Imagine looking at a shooter from the side with the target on the right and the shooter on the left. The line the bullet takes for an 8' shooter starts at 8', and drops to 4' at the plate.

For a 4' tall shooter, the bullet starts and ends at 4'

From prone, it starts at 0'(ish) and ends at 4'.

So those lines will cross the halfway point at 6', 4', and 2'.

[ZackJones]

I checked GT Targets for scaled targets. He has 12x18 targets in 1/4" for $55.00 and 3/8" for $84.00. Sometime after Area 6 I plan to go to the range and set the stages up again and use a cardboard 12x18 rectangle and see how the stage looks.

[zzt]

I don't think you can scale the stages, because the originally 10 yard targets will be too close. 18x24 at 35 yards scales to 12x18 at 25 yards. So why not keep everything the same and just move the 35 yard targets to 25 and substitute 12x18 plates?

If you want to refine it even more, scale the distance away from the centerline for the 35 yard targets. So instead of 21.5" for SO, set the 25 yard target at 15.5' from center. The target angle will be the same as the original and so will the target area. Then you can refine your muscle memory to two decimal points.

Edited April 19, 2016 by zzt

[ZackJones]

I don't think you can scale the stages, because the originally 10 yard targets will be too close.

18x24 at 35 yards scales to 12x18 at 25 yards. So why not keep everything the same and just move the 35 yard targets to 25 and substitute 12x18 plates?

If you want to refine it even more, scale the distance away from the centerline for the 35 yard targets.

So instead of 21.5" for SO, set the 25 yard target at 15.5' from center.

The target angle will be the same as the original and so will the target area. Then you can refine your muscle memory to two decimal points.

I was only thinking of scaling the two at 35 yards when they were moved up to 25. I didn't think about scaling from the centerline as well. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Scaling from the center would also apply if we stuck with the 18x24 plates wouldn't it?

[ZackJones]

Jake Martens from USPSA suggested an easy way to add more stages - we could keep the same lay out and just change plates. For example we could have Smoke & Hope 12 where we use 12" circles for all plates. We could have Smoke & Hope 10 where we use 10 inch plates, etc. I kind of like that idea. What do you guys think?

[zzt]

Zack, yes, you would scale the distance from center even if you kept the larger plate. However, that may make you a little sloppy when you went back to 35 yards for the match.

[jdphotoguy]

Jake Martens from USPSA suggested an easy way to add more stages - we could keep the same lay out and just change plates. For example we could have Smoke & Hope 12 where we use 12" circles for all plates. We could have Smoke & Hope 10 where we use 10 inch plates, etc. I kind of like that idea. What do you guys think?

I like that idea, keeps things simple and would use plates clubs should already have.

[ZackJones]

Zack, yes, you would scale the distance from center even if you kept the larger plate. However, that may make you a little sloppy when you went back to 35 yards for the match.

Thanks. When I have some time after the Area 6 match I'm going to go out to the range and try setting up the stages in their original setting and then short version using scaled targets and scaled target placement to see how things look.

Jake Martens from USPSA suggested an easy way to add more stages - we could keep the same lay out and just change plates. For example we could have Smoke & Hope 12 where we use 12" circles for all plates. We could have Smoke & Hope 10 where we use 10 inch plates, etc. I kind of like that idea. What do you guys think?

I like that idea, keeps things simple and would use plates clubs should already have.

So do I. I actually like it quite a bit. I think that would be the quickest and easiest way for us to add additional stages. I plan to set up Smoke & Hope 10 at our next match to see what that's like.

[zzt]

I like the S&H 12 and 10 idea. There are other ways to add stages, besides creating entirely new ones. For instance, you could add a second box for some stages and you can elect to include movement between them if desired. You could also move the boxes back 5 yards to increase the accuracy required. Or you could scale it. For instance, moving the box back 5.25' for S&M 10 gives you the equivalent of S&H 8 without requiring the club to buy 8" targets.

[photoracer]

I practice in my backyard range using subpar size targets at the normal distances, especially when shooting rimfire. One reason I bought a bunch of extra 8 and 10 inch targets so I could shoot 8 instead of 10 and 10 instead of 12. Helps sharpen up your accuracy so that when you get to a real match the targets seem big.

[Tdizle]

Here I was feel good about my performance on those 2 stages, didnt know you set them up short.

-Travis

[scottlep]

My idea for Steel Challenge is....have a pool of maybe 15-20 Stages. That way clubs can set up whatever stages fit on their ranges, plus they can change stages for each monthly match to keep shooters from getting bored. Have a classification system more in line with USPSA. At major matches no one would know what the stages are until they show up to the match (or someone posts pictures on Facebook...ha). That way at majors it might level the playing field a little bit. Sure, Max and those guys will probably still win, but it will actually come down to skill rather than someone who has just shot the same 8 stages from months and is really just winning by repetition rather than true skill.

[ZackJones]

I agree completely. I would love to have 15 - 20 stages to choose from. One day soon I'm heading to the range and setting all 8 stages up using the 3 different plate sizes.

I want to see how they look using them. Assuming we allowed clubs to setup all 8 stages using the standard setup or all 10" plates or all 12" plates that gives us 24 stages with virtually no effort.

I would like to see some new stages added. For example the stage called Drag Race where you shoot all 5 shots on an 18x24 rectangle or 2-2-1 where you shoot 2 each on the 18x24 rectangles and then 1 on the stop plate.

[scottlep]

I agree completely. I would love to have 15 - 20 stages to choose from. One day soon I'm heading to the range and setting all 8 stages up using the 3 different plate sizes.

I want to see how they look using them. Assuming we allowed clubs to setup all 8 stages using the standard setup or all 10" plates or all 12" plates that gives us 24 stages with virtually no effort.

I would like to see some new stages added. For example the stage called Drag Race where you shoot all 5 shots on an 18x24 rectangle or 2-2-1 where you shoot 2 each on the 18x24 rectangles and then 1 on the stop plate.

I was more thinking completely new additional stages to the current 8. I don't disagree with the same stages with different size plates, but that would still allow people to just shoot them in the smallest version possible for practice, learn the stage by repetitive shooting, which would then very easily translate to bigger plates. There are already tons of predesigned stages out there, but it might take some real thinking to come up with new challenging stages that also test all aspects of speed shooting such as draw, transitions, etc. I wouldn't mind also seeing some new stages with elevation changes in the plates. Only stage right now that doesnt have plates all at the same height is Pendulum.

Here are some links and other diagrams of non-SCSA stages I have found, some of them look very interesting.

http://www.handgunsports.com/AMERICAN-SP.HTM

http://www.shred2.net/~shred/gallery/OtherSteelMatchStages

Other steel challenge stages2.pdf

One problem I have seen with double-tap type stages like you mention is it gets hard for shooters, ROs and scorers to call hits correctly. I have shot those type stages at outlaw matches and they usually don't go well due to double hits in the same spot, etc. Plus I don't see these type stages as being any real test of shooting ability.

Edited April 28, 2016 by scottlep