EricW Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 IPSC is now going to decide if a gun meets "the spirit of Production" as a criterion for approval on the Production gun list. This is going to be worse than the IPDA debacle. Here's what I'd like to do: - Keep the existing rules for Production pistols (DA, 10 rds, etc) - Make the guns fit in a box (i.e. if a manufacturer adds a magwell, it's going to come at a price) - Require 2000 guns in *civillian* circulation / sales channels. Make it 5000 if necessary. Tweaking this number will preclude making $2000+ Production pistols. - Stop the rest of this horsesh*t The last thing USPSA needs is an international "Gun Taliban" that takes it upon itself to deem what is and is not in "the spirit of Production." IPSC seems hell-bent on this goofy, new system, so the best thing we can do is get away from it ASAP. There is no reason to continue to alienate the industry we've begged to come support our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 The political aspects to what is and isn't "Production" has got to end. Make a clearly defined objective set of criteria AND STICK WITH IT. Using political subjective criteria is only going to drive competitors and manufactures away. Didn't they learn from what happened with the 356TSW and Craig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 <grain of salt> I don't shoot Production, but am all for simplication and non-ambiguity </grain of salt> I agree with your proposal Maybe a weight limit, as well?? Someone could make a tungsten pistol, and we'd probably buy 2000 of them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 As an avid Production competitor I'm all for a set of rules that are spelled out in the rulebook, and not this "spirit of the division" BS. So my 'racy' $495 pistol is not in the spirit of the division? Pure crapola. What is needed is either a set of hard rules governing the gun list, or do away with it and go back to what it was before. A box, a production figure, and about 10 rules. Thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 What Mink said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I shoot Limited and am going Open so you will understand my ignorance here, but just exactly is the "Spirit" of production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 just exactly is the "Spirit" of production? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think that's the entire point Its rather ambiguous.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 I shoot Limited and am going Open so you will understand my ignorance here, but just exactly is the "Spirit" of production? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Taliban has currently defined that to be "no innovation." I don't remember the "no innovation" division. I remember the "you can buy a gun at the gunstore and shoot it here" division. If our rules drive the industry to make more competitive (read: easier to shoot) pistols, what on this earth could possibly be wrong with that? I *want* USPSA to be the gold standard in the industry. That's a *good* thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Quote DavidWiz The political aspects to what is and isn't "Production" has got to end. Make a clearly defined objective set of criteria AND STICK WITH IT. Using political subjective criteria is only going to drive competitors and manufactures away. Didn't they learn from what happened with the 356TSW and Craig? End of Quote Obviously not! What we need is a simple criteria that anyone can understand. It has to be simple enough so that a part time club RO can look at your gun and know that it either does or does not meet the divisional rules. It should not take a gunsmith schooled in the particular brand of gun to determine if your gun is OK. Box, good idea, I suppose, keeps the overal dimensions within a certain limit. Round capacity, OK by me, especially here in the US. The biggest question is just what do we allow? Do we allow trigger work? how much and what kind, how does anyone know what was done? Do we decide on a minimum pull weight? What about sights? Can you put adjustable sights on a gun that was shipped without? What about refinishing a gun? Do we have to match the original? Do we allow only factory parts? Do we allow aftermarket parts as long as they are identical in appearence to factory? We have created a Frankensteinian division here in many respects. Someone much smarter than I will have to answer these and many more questions. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Yeah, what DiVita said Mink said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Ditto to Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 At the 2003 Board meeting, USPSA voted to create its own Production gun list, "based on" the IPSC list, augmented with USPSA-specific additions and deletions. We figured that if/when IPSC changed their list, we would be notified through a formal rules process, and we could decide whether or not to make the same changes to the USPSA list. Unfortunately, it didn't actually get implemented that way. What "got built" was a live-link to the IPSC list on the IPSC page, with USPSA-specific tweaks built into it. So, when IPSC made changes to their list, it automatically made changes to the USPSA list without any decision having been made by NROI. We're working to fix that, right now. We *do* have our own (USPSA-specific) list, and most of the current controversy should go away once we have boken that live link. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I thought the purpose of the Production division was to get manufacturers back into the game. They started doing that then some moron whined that he got beat by the technologial superiority of XZY pistols. Let's quit p$%^%& them off and let them sell guns. "Sob, sob. I'll never win my world title with that guy shooting such a technologically advanced pistol..sob, sob... I want it banned!!" Cry me a river then go out and practice!!!! Or spend $500 and buy one!!!! And the rules used to be pretty clear.. DA etc, no external mods other than sights and finish, 2 oz over stock weight. If the box will fix this..fine. If CZ wants to make a full length steel dust cover gun..great!!! If Glock wants to do the same..great!! Let's quite worrying about an "arms race" with $500 pistols and just shoot!!! And if a $50 "gamey" mod is the trick of the day...great. Eventually everyone will benefit and it won't break the bank either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Bruce, All I've got to say is the sooner the better. Thanks for understanding. I hope that USPSA will be contacting all the relevant manufacturers and letting them know that punitive, arbitrary rulings are *not* what USPSA is about and that they can support USPSA and its events with confidence now and into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 The only problem I see is that if the USPSA list/criteria allows a gun that is not IPSC approved, you could not use it at a WS or other IPSC match outside the US. For 99% of the USPSA members that is probably OK but what about the 1 % ? We have seen this with the Sprigfield XD, which until recently was not IPSC approved. USPSA either needs to adopt the IPSC Production class with the exception of mag capacity and mover forward or act like it does not exist and make decision that best suit the membership here in the US. Riding the fence is not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 At the 2003 Board meeting, USPSA voted to create its own Production gun list, "based on" the IPSC list, augmented with USPSA-specific additions and deletions.We figured that if/when IPSC changed their list, we would be notified through a formal rules process, and we could decide whether or not to make the same changes to the USPSA list. Unfortunately, it didn't actually get implemented that way. What "got built" was a live-link to the IPSC list on the IPSC page, with USPSA-specific tweaks built into it. So, when IPSC made changes to their list, it automatically made changes to the USPSA list without any decision having been made by NROI. We're working to fix that, right now. We *do* have our own (USPSA-specific) list, and most of the current controversy should go away once we have boken that live link. Bruce <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bruce, Thats great! That fixes the problem (hopefully) here at home. But it still doesn't fix the problem when the CZ team goes to the World Shoot. It also still affects quite a few people overseas that bought our SP-01 with the intention of using it in IPSC Production. Now the pistol has been banned without good reason and as far as I know, that will not be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Bruce, thank you for the explanation of the current system. I believe that in 2003, adoption of the IPSC list by USPSA was a perfectly reasonable decision & until last month, the list system worked fine. Now, there is a flaw in the current system thanks to the IPSC BOD's decision to adhere to the nebulous concept of "spirit of the Division" - whatever that means. Still, IPSC allows: Approved: Beretta Steel I: $1600 Approved: Sig 226 Steel : $990 Approved: Para LDA: 18 round magazine Approved: Baby Eagle: Long heavy dust-cover Unless the IPSC BOD corrects their recent unjust decision, it may be necessary for USPSA to adopt a different criteria for Production, though I had hoped we would get closer to IPSC's rules rather than further apart. I see nothing unfair nor imprecise in Eric W's suggestion (good suggestion Eric, Matt, etc); just so long as the "2000 Produced" are available to everyone & not Custom Shop specials or sold overseas so that regular shooters can't get one of the 2000 produced. The SP-01 & Stock Custom were & always have been intended for general retail sale once in full production. Angus has begun selling the 1st SP-01s in the USA. Retail price to anyone? $495. Best regards, D.C. Johnson www.shootersparadise.com EDIT: for the record, I am against price limits or limits on innovation. Let the manufacturers innovate and let the shooters shoot whatever gun fits the rule of the division. I cite the examples above not because I am against them. To the contrary, I am in favor of letting those gun remain on the list along with other guns that follow the division RULES such as the SP-01 and Stock Custom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 But it still doesn't fix the problem when the CZ team goes to the World Shoot. It also still affects quite a few people overseas that bought our SP-01 with the intention of using it in IPSC Production. Now the pistol has been banned without good reason and as far as I know, that will not be fixed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Matt, Is IPSC Production even relevant anymore? If this is what they have to do in order thin out the competion, the World Shoot is a non-event in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I immediately liked EricW's "you can buy a gun at the gunstore and shoot it here" division. After giving this a couple of minutes thought I come to the following conclusion. Production should be a bring what you got division. No equipment rules. It is for new shooters. You want to shoot and have no clue? Shoot production. Want to get started with a $3,000 open gun in a $500 race rig? No problem. It is the shooter, not the gun. After winning three matches you go to Limited or Open as appropriate and leave production for the bring what you got and have fun crowd. If you want to sandbag and stay in production....have fun, but don't bother winning. In fact, maybe all new shooters should start in production under this system. AikiDale's Production Division Rules: 1. Have fun. 2. Do not scare the guy with the timer. 3. Stick around long enough to help tear down after the match. When you get good enough, we'll let you help set up. 4. No whining! (match DQ) Not to go into effect until after Matt wins for team CZ at the WS of course.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Thats great! That fixes the problem (hopefully) here at home.But it still doesn't fix the problem when the CZ team goes to the World Shoot. Therein lies an example of what is probably going to become a pretty big fork in the road. Do we.... 1) have USPSA rules that serve our US members, recognizing that this solution creates some complexity for US shooters in international competition? (i.e., your US-legal gun may not be legal at the world shoot), ...or... 2) do we follow IPSC through every change in philosophical direction, even the ones that *detrimentally* affect US shooters, because it is more important to be part of the world org than it is to have things "our way". I used to be a pretty strong proponent of #2. Having spent the last several years involved in the IPSC rules process, and as a shooter having observed some of the trends in IPSC competitions.... I'm currently firmly in camp #1. I *know* that creates problems. But I think (my personal opinion) that #1 better serves USPSA members, and for those shooter who want to shoot in international competition, it is a [relatively] small thing to expect them to be aware of the international rules. I know that when I raced sailboats for a living, I had to be aware of the differences between US, North American and International rules, and those were *far* more complex (and expensive) than anything we're contemplating. It was just a part of... if you're going to France (or wherever) to compete, you need to make sure you know how the rules are different when you get there. $.02 Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 We don't have to get further apart (USPSA and IPSC). What we (USPSA) can do is LEAD by example. Lets set the standard so that IPSC has something to strive for. Either IPSC will recognize a better system, or they are too polarized to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Bruce,Thats great! That fixes the problem (hopefully) here at home. But it still doesn't fix the problem when the CZ team goes to the World Shoot. It also still affects quite a few people overseas that bought our SP-01 with the intention of using it in IPSC Production. Now the pistol has been banned without good reason and as far as I know, that will not be fixed. If I am not mistaken, the US fo A gets ONE vote with regards to what happens in IPSC. Again, I think the best we can do it to get it right in USPSA and set the example. I agree with your proposal Maybe a weight limit, as well?? Someone could make a tungsten pistol, and we'd probably buy 2000 of them.... With a limit along the lines of 2,000 (like we had in the red rule book), a lot of the details are taken care of by the market. Lets face it, the USPSA Production shooter market isn't large enough to drive the market. All we can expect is influence. There aren't enough active USPSA Prodcutions shooters to get to buy 2,000 of anything. And, that is kinda the opposite of what we are after, I think. Production should be from guns that are already on the shelves...in numbers. Once they are out there, then we should let them play. With a number like 2,000 (or higher, if that is what it takes)...the gun has to be marketable to all, not just the competition shooters. Or, it just won't sell. If it is popular with the public, popular with LE, popular with the military...then the guns sold/produced will meet the criteria. If they are too much like a Buck Rodgers space gun, they won't sell. If they are too expensive, they won't sell. If they cost too much, they won't sell. Set a solid production number and the details work themselves out. I *want* USPSA to be the gold standard in the industry. That's a *good* thing. Well said. On many levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Production should be and is a "box stock" division. Why the CZ is not in is an example of IPSC leaders thinking . I really hate the "Spirit" quote. It should be included. I like to call Production an even playing field. If it doesn't stay that way you might see people leave like in the 90's PS Before you call Production an entry level division ask people like Matt Mink, Dave Sevigny, Dave Olasso and a host of others if they feel like they are entry level shooters. It really is a true "stock" gun division. That's kind of neat if you think about it. I totally agree on the have fun and don't get hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I immediately liked EricW's "you can buy a gun at the gunstore and shoot it here" division. After giving this a couple of minutes thought I come to the following conclusion. Production should be a bring what you got division. No equipment rules. It is for new shooters. You want to shoot and have no clue? Shoot production. Want to get started with a $3,000 open gun in a $500 race rig? No problem. It is the shooter, not the gun. After winning three matches you go to Limited or Open as appropriate and leave production for the bring what you got and have fun crowd. If you want to sandbag and stay in production....have fun, but don't bother winning. In fact, maybe all new shooters should start in production under this system. AikiDale's Production Division Rules: 1. Have fun. 2. Do not scare the guy with the timer. 3. Stick around long enough to help tear down after the match. When you get good enough, we'll let you help set up. 4. No whining! (match DQ) Not to go into effect until after Matt wins for team CZ at the WS of course.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 2A: Do not shoot the RO (Guy with the timer) 2B: Do not shoot anyone else on the squad. 2C: Do not shoot RO's truck. 2D: Do not shoot yourself. 2D1: Failing any of 2A through 2C, feel free to ignore 2D Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Whether we go to Fork 1 or Fork 2, I think that we have to take care of the USPSA shooters and our wants and needs as much as possible, within the overall IPSC framework..... but if that means splitting from IPSC on a few issues, so be it. Currently all the Glock shooters in Production in the US that shoot 34s and 35s will have to swap to the 17 and 22 for the World Shoot anyway, so we already have Production guns that US shooters can't take abroad ..... (at least in Prod Division). And I'm sure Glock USA loves the fact that USPSA allowed the G34/35 in Prod, look how many sales that made for them ! And Springfield Armory has benefited from the decison to allow the XD in USPSA (and now IPSC has fallen suit). CZ-USA needs some love to ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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