STI Edge feeding issues - at my wits' end

[evilbeef54]

Does anyone have any pictures of the areas on the aftec and FP stop that might need some tuning, I am having a very similar issue in my 38 supercomp open gun

[R.Elliott]

Just a note to add: if the COAL is too short for the gun the round will be on too steep of an angle at the break-over point in the feed cycle and thus, it will not cam up under the extractor properly. Because of the extreme angle it will pinch the rim between the breach face and the extractor hook lead-in. You may be able to "tune" the lead-in on the extractor hook a little to compensate and get it to feed, but on an aftec it shouldn't require much if any, properly fitted and as well, you can end up with not enough hook contact on the rim, which will lead to erratic extraction/ejection. So you want to find the correct length for your gun and you will probably be happiest in the vicinity of 1.20", give or take depending on bullet profile.

[teros135]

Just a note to add: if the COAL is too short for the gun the round will be on too steep of an angle at the break-over point in the feed cycle and thus, it will not cam up under the extractor properly. Because of the extreme angle it will pinch the rim between the breach face and the extractor hook lead-in. You may be able to "tune" the lead-in on the extractor hook a little to compensate and get it to feed, but on an aftec it shouldn't require much if any, properly fitted and as well, you can end up with not enough hook contact on the rim, which will lead to erratic extraction/ejection. So you want to find the correct length for your gun and you will probably be happiest in the vicinity of 1.20", give or take depending on bullet profile.

A good thought; thanks. I've also had trouble with a round getting "stuck" during feeding, with the nose on the upper third of the feed ramp and the rim just under the FP hole.

Part of the problem was breech erosion (from SPM primers, I think) that kept the rim from sliding smoothly up under the extractor (Aftec - not its fault).

Part may have been OAL, which at the time was 1.080.

Part was probably use of truncated cone bullets (either Zeros or coated lead, didn't seem to matter).

Works fine now, after having the breech erosion fixed and the feed ramp slightly repositioned, and going to 1.190 OAL. MG 180 gr JHP still works best, probably because they're rounder and more "slidey".

It's remarkable how all the parts in the 1911 design work interactively and how many parts have multiple jobs (e.g., the FPS positions and "contains" the firing pin, positions the extractor and keeps it from clocking, and affects how quickly the slide starts it's movement backwards (which can affect muzzle rise).

[R.Elliott]

[quote name="teros135" post="2543185" timestamp="1454183973"

Works fine now, after having the breech erosion fixed and the feed ramp slightly repositioned, and going to 1.190 OAL. MG 180 gr JHP still works best, probably because they're rounder and more "slidey".

It's remarkable how all the parts in the 1911 design work interactively and how many parts have multiple jobs (e.g., the FPS positions and "contains" the firing pin, positions the extractor and keeps it from clocking, and affects how quickly the slide starts it's movement backwards (which can affect muzzle rise).

The jhp profile moves the point at which the bullets strikes the ramp higher, relative to a truncated cone profile, so feed angle and break government instantly improves.

And yup, it's even more amazing when you consider JMB figured a this out long before there were computers. It all came out of his head.

[R.Elliott]

Sorry, I messed up that quote. Stupid cell phone....

[CHA-LEE]

Does anyone have any pictures of the areas on the aftec and FP stop that might need some tuning, I am having a very similar issue in my 38 supercomp open gun

Here is a link to the instructions that come with the AFTEC.......

http://allthehowards.com/pistol/sti_extractor/aftec%20instruction%20sheet.pdf

[Cliveb]

Update: Have now run about 500 rounds through the gun after beveling the aftec hook (and further beveling and thinning out of the firing pin stop). Not one failure to chamber (or extract) in a variety of COL's - from factory to 1.200". Both springs in the AFTEC to make sure extraction is good (no issues there up till now).

To make things as tough as possible, I ran a 12lb recoil spring and shot a good number of rounds SHO and WHO. Furthermore, I did not clean it yet, other than put a drop of oil on the barrel every 200 rounds.

I'm hopeful that I licked this beast...so just for your reference, sometimes the hook end of the AFTEC does need to be beveled further, whatever the manufacturers may say. This provides reliability across a wide range of COLs - sometimes we don't have such a great choice as to what rounds we shoot - we shouldn't have to live with excessively finicky guns....

Thanks to all who tried to help by sharing your experiences - hope this was helpful to others too

Edited February 3, 2016 by Cliveb

[RPatton]

If you carry spare parts to big matches a spare AFTEC and firing pin stop can be handy to have. Pre-fit, tried and tested of course.........just in case things go horribly awry.

If you can go through 1000 rounds of that ammo without changing anything and with NO maintenance and no malfunctions, then you should have enough confidence in your pistol to know that if it then jams or FTF, something may be amiss.

[Cliveb]

If you carry spare parts to big matches a spare AFTEC and firing pin stop can be handy to have. Pre-fit, tried and tested of course.........just in case things go horribly awry.

If you can go through 1000 rounds of that ammo without changing anything and with NO maintenance and no malfunctions, then you should have enough confidence in your pistol to know that if it then jams or FTF, something may be amiss.

If I get through 1000 rounds without any kind of malf, I'll pop the champagne! I'm already relieved to have gotten through 500.....that's how much faith I have in the bloody thing...

[RPatton]

If you carry spare parts to big matches a spare AFTEC and firing pin stop can be handy to have. Pre-fit, tried and tested of course.........just in case things go horribly awry.

If you can go through 1000 rounds of that ammo without changing anything and with NO maintenance and no malfunctions, then you should have enough confidence in your pistol to know that if it then jams or FTF, something may be amiss.

If I get through 1000 rounds without any kind of malf, I'll pop the champagne! I'm already relieved to have gotten through 500.....that's how much faith I have in the bloody thing...

500 rounds is a good start.

Don't change anything and keep pulling the trigger. You may be surprised.

[evilbeef54]

nice, I'll try to bevel mine a bit more I guess

[evilbeef54]

nice, I'll try to bevel mine a bit more I guess

[Cliveb]

nice, I'll try to bevel mine a bit more I guess

Just take it slowly - and remember to thin out the FP stop so the extractor has space to "float" forward for those difficult rounds...

[StraightSh00ter]

Update: Have now run about 500 rounds through the gun after beveling the aftec hook (and further beveling and thinning out of the firing pin stop). Not one failure to chamber (or extract) in a variety of COL's - from factory to 1.200". Both springs in the AFTEC to make sure extraction is good (no issues there up till now).

To make things as tough as possible, I ran a 12lb recoil spring and shot a good number of rounds SHO and WHO. Furthermore, I did not clean it yet, other than put a drop of oil on the barrel every 200 rounds.

I'm hopeful that I licked this beast...so just for your reference, sometimes the hook end of the AFTEC does need to be beveled further, whatever the manufacturers may say. This provides reliability across a wide range of COLs - sometimes we don't have such a great choice as to what rounds we shoot - we shouldn't have to live with excessively finicky guns....

Thanks to all who tried to help by sharing your experiences - hope this was helpful to others too

Glad to hear it's starting to work out. Hopefully you'll make it past this and end up loving your gun.

[Cliveb]

Update: Have now run about 500 rounds through the gun after beveling the aftec hook (and further beveling and thinning out of the firing pin stop). Not one failure to chamber (or extract) in a variety of COL's - from factory to 1.200". Both springs in the AFTEC to make sure extraction is good (no issues there up till now).

To make things as tough as possible, I ran a 12lb recoil spring and shot a good number of rounds SHO and WHO. Furthermore, I did not clean it yet, other than put a drop of oil on the barrel every 200 rounds.

I'm hopeful that I licked this beast...so just for your reference, sometimes the hook end of the AFTEC does need to be beveled further, whatever the manufacturers may say. This provides reliability across a wide range of COLs - sometimes we don't have such a great choice as to what rounds we shoot - we shouldn't have to live with excessively finicky guns....

Thanks to all who tried to help by sharing your experiences - hope this was helpful to others too

Glad to hear it's starting to work out. Hopefully you'll make it past this and end up loving your gun.

Up to 900 rounds now. Looks like I got it sorted. Latest batch were a bunch loaded to 1.140", so that they can run in my glock too. Not a single issue. I'm becoming a regular 2011 tinkerer (have to be in my country - nobody I would trust to touch it... 2011's have only been available for about 10 years or so...)

[Chutist]

Glad you got it sorted out.

[evilbeef54]

ok, not sure if i am over thinking this. I'm trying to get everything to run as smooth as possible in my 38 super comp open gun. I got it used, and it had an 8# recoil spring in it, i was getting the feeding issue described here, i bumped up to a 9# and it seems to feed a little better when shooting with the 200 or so i have put through it, but i have not had a chance to extensively test it out yet. I radiused the corners of the FP stop a little more, and gave it a little more on the bottom corners of the extractor, i have also tried removing the front spring. The issue im getting is if i ride the slide forward instead of letting it slam it binds up (see pictures below). Should it feed smoothly even when riding the slide forward slowly or is it not an issue if it goes when shooting/racking hard? I feel like with how light these guns are sprung it shouldnt have any binding even when going slow, i can give a little more clearance on the FP stop if needed, but i dont want to try to "fix" something that isnt a problem. My 2 limited .40 2011s feed perfect even when riding the slide SUPER slow. Im thinking maybe i need to thin the FP stop a tiny bit so that the extractor has the ability to move fwd and back a tiny bit? ***** edit i mic'd the fp stop gap on the aftec (.100) and the fp stop thickness (.100) so i took a thined it a little, still happened, so i tried totally removing the fp stop to see if it would still happen... it did, so i dont think that is the issue, the extractor tension still feels crazy tight even with only one spring, especially compared to my two limited guns with standard extractors? Or again is this something that is "normal"

Edited February 8, 2016 by evilbeef54

[CaptainOverkill]

I had some feeding issues with my DVC Limited as well. It would not work at all with the reloads I've been shooting in my Glocks (200 gr Blue Bullet + Titegroup, 1.135" OAL). It seemed to run better on factory ammo, but still not flawless. I ordered a U die to size the cases better and loaded some 180s at 1.180" to see if it just wanted longer ammo, but it still choked. My dad has been shooting 1911s since around 1979, and he has seen his share of issues with them. He happened to be at the range with me and pointed out that it was binding up because the cartridge rim was having a hard time getting under the extractor. I beveled the bottom edge of the extractor and backed off the tension (after reading Bill Wilson's guide on M1911.org). Yesterday I ran through 100 rounds without a hiccup - even the 1.135" reloads and factory ammo. I think I have it dialed in now.

[CHA-LEE]

Evilbeef54> I hate to say it but the slide shouldn't need to be "Slammed forward" to properly feed a round. There are four points of contact the round has while feeding and in the position you showed an example of. 1 - Rim of the case touching the breach face at the 12 O'clock position. 2 - Rim of case touching the leading edge of the extractor at the 2 - 3 O'clock position. 3 - Front edge of the brass mouth against the top of the barrel chamber at the 12 O'clock position. 4 - Middle of the brass against the bottom front edge of the chamber at the 5 - 7 O'clock position.

Troubleshooting the Positions

Position 1 - Not much you can do here other than verify that the breach face is smooth and that the edges around the firing pin hole are not sharp which can catch on the rim of the case.

Position 2 - Increasing the radius at the bottom of the extractor hook to assist in the rim getting under the extractor. You could tune the depth of the extractor hook its self so the pinching depth isn't as deep. You also need to verify that the AFTEC can move freely in and out from the rim by installing it without the springs or cap and manually move it back and forth with the firing pin stop installed. If it can't move freely without spring tension then its going to be extra stiff when you install the springs and cap.

Position 3 - The whole chamber should be mirror smooth, especially the top. If the top of the chamber has machining marks, grooves or whatever it will cause excessive friction and require excessive force to chamber the round. You can test the smoothness of the chamber by taking the barrel out of the gun and manually inserting a round into the chamber at the same angle it would be feed normally. You should be able to put a significant amount of upward force on the round as you insert it and not feel any excessive friction.

Position 4 - The radius of the starting point at the bottom of the chamber is very important. The transition between the Ramp and the Chamber should be slightly rounded and the overall radius should match the profile of the brass. There shouldn't be any high spots where the brass is rubbing excessively verses others. The best way to test this is to black out the radius with a sharpie marker then cycle about 20 rounds through the gun using an aggressive slide lock drop type of feeding. Take the barrel back out and see where the marker has worn off. It should be evenly worn off from the 5 - 7 O'clock position.

Edited February 11, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[evilbeef54]

Evilbeef54> I hate to say it but the slide shouldn't need to be "Slammed forward" to properly feed a round. There are four points of contact the round has while feeding and in the position you showed an example of. 1 - Rim of the case touching the breach face at the 12 O'clock position. 2 - Rim of case touching the leading edge of the extractor at the 2 - 3 O'clock position. 3 - Front edge of the brass mouth against the top of the barrel chamber at the 12 O'clock position. 4 - Middle of the brass against the bottom front edge of the chamber at the 5 - 7 O'clock position.

Troubleshooting the Positions

Position 1 - Not much you can do here other than verify that the breach face is smooth and that the edges around the firing pin hole are not sharp which can catch on the rim of the case.

Position 2 - Increasing the radius at the bottom of the extractor hook to assist in the rim getting under the extractor. You could tune the depth of the extractor hook its self so the pinching depth isn't as deep. You also need to verify that the AFTEC can move freely in and out from the rim by installing it without the springs or cap and manually move it back and forth with the firing pin stop installed. If it can't move freely without spring tension then its going to be extra stiff when you install the springs and cap.

Position 3 - The whole chamber should be mirror smooth, especially the top. If the top of the chamber has machining marks, grooves or whatever it will cause excessive friction and require excessive force to chamber the round. You can test the smoothness of the chamber by taking the barrel out of the gun and manually inserting a round into the chamber at the same angle it would be feed normally. You should be able to put a significant amount of upward force on the round as you insert it and not feel any excessive friction.

Position 4 - The radius of the starting point at the bottom of the chamber is very important. The transition between the Ramp and the Chamber should be slightly rounded and the overall radius should match the profile of the brass. There shouldn't be any high spots where the brass is rubbing excessively verses others. The best way to test this is to black out the radius with a sharpie marker then cycle about 20 rounds through the gun using an aggressive slide lock drop type of feeding. Take the barrel back out and see where the marker has worn off. It should be evenly worn off from the 5 - 7 O'clock position.

Awesome!!! Thanks for your time and help, that is exactly what I need, I will check all that out and report back!

[evilbeef54]

ok cha-lee

checking position 1, there are some very faint wear marks in the breach, nothing that you can feel, and i dont think anything that would cause an issue

checking position 2, i pulled the springs and cap and reinstalled, im wondering how much it is supposed to move forward front and back, there doesnt seem to be tension/binding, but it barely moves at all front and back, it does move a tiny bit, maybe a thou and when pointing the gun downward gravity will fall it back down, with NO springs i can not induce the binding, but i'm not sure if that means much since there is almost no extractor tension and the rounds just dribble out when cycling. i have noticed that the back of the extractor doesnt sit flush with the back of the slide, but that could be just from the slide milling right?

i tried radiusing the extractor it self a little more to see if that helps, still have the issues, i think the depth might be part of the issue, it does seem to have a lot of tension, with even one spring, way more tension that my 2 limited 40 cal guns with standard extractors, but this is the first AFTEC i have used so not sure

Position 3- not excessive friction felt, it is a little dull in the chamber, not sure if that needs to be adressed, and if so how, mothers metal polish and q tip?

position 4- looks pretty even

overall after checking everything you said i'm still feeling like the issue is somewhere with the extractor, i am new to all this but again with the 2 springs installed it takes quite a bit for force to slide a round in then on my 40s with standard extractors, 1 spring is better but weaker ejection and a feel like it is just masking the problem, and 0 springs is no issue but definitely not a workable solution. i could radius the bottom corner a touch more, or try to open the gap a depth a little more. I will defer to your expertise and will owe you a few beers at A2 (at least my limited guns are running like a top for that) hahaha

[evilbeef54]

here is where im looking at and what my thinking is, feel free to tell me im way off base

the round is meeting a lot of tension, it is having to push the extractor a bit out of the way to get into place, and has a lot more tension than my limited 40's and you can see how much it has to move over (under spring tension) to let the round into place, also you can see how there is zero front to back play so that is tight as well.... maybe im wrong but i think this is the issue, what can/should i do about this?

Edited February 12, 2016 by evilbeef54

[evilbeef54]

and i guess for comparison for what i am loooking at, here is my limited 40, standard extractor first contact

fully seated.... lots more room

[CHA-LEE]

I think your issue resides in the overall "Pinch" tension the extractor has against the rim of the case. It looks like it has enough radius from the pictures so adding more won't help.

When you describe the movement of the extractor I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to explain. With the springs and cap removed, install the extractor and firing pin stop. There should be very minimal movement of the extractor front to back. The front to back movement you described above sounds normal. The thing you have to check is the "Pinch" movement of the extractor. It should be able to move towards and away from the rim of the case easily with the springs and cap removed. An easy way to test this is to insert a piece of brass under the extractor and up against the breach face. There shouldn't be any "Pinch" force against the rim of the case with the springs and cap removed. If there is, then the pinch depth is too deep.

Normally you can tune the pinch force of the extractor by reducing the edge of the extractor hook that touches the inside groove on the rim of the case. But from the pictures you provided it does not look like the edge of the extractor can be tuned much more than it already is. The only thing left is the extractor tunnel its self.

I see that your slide as one of the SV removable breach faces. That breach face may be slightly out of position causing an excessive pinch depth. You should be able to remove the extractor and look down the extractor tunnel to see if there are any obvious alignment issue between the tunnel in the slide verses the tunnel in the breach face.

If the extractor tunnel is cut at the wrong dimension making it too tight of a pinch force you may be stuck with NOT using an AFTEC and using a normal style extractor instead. A normal extractor has much more pinch force adjustment range and can be setup properly. You may also have a bent AFTEC that is causing excessive pinching force.

Its hard to make any solid recommendations without being able to see it in person.

[evilbeef54]

Awesome, thanks for your help, I understand what you are saying now and will have a look:

Edit--- I checked again with no springs a round slides very easily under the extractor and the extractor has some (a very small amount) of side to side play, there is also no glaring alignment issues in the tunnel/breach face. I guess the next step is have a professional have a look in person or try a different extractor.

gun shot great at practice today after Carlos hooked me up on tuning/bending that extractor a bit too

Edited February 14, 2016 by evilbeef54