Increasing participation

[d_striker]

The more I think about it the more I don't get the divisions "increasing participation" or "growing the sport". I would say the vast majority of shooters that would be targeted don't have a slide mounted dot or a PCC, they have a regular ole duty sized handgun with a mag that holds a lot of rounds. When you tell them they can shoot Prod and load to 10 or shoot limited and get scored lowered that is when most say.....screw it.

Want those shooters to stay, have 6 divisions

Open

-minor

-major

Limited

-minor

-major

Prod

SSTK

Score the major minor divisions separate but also award an overall division award that way people can decide if they think shooting major is worth winning the overall division. Your average range guy, plinker will have a gun that can be competitive in any division and doesn't need to worry about PF to do so. Sure purists may not like that as much but I think that is where the growth would happen.

It seems like you're proposing categories within divisions (Open division, with a category choice of major pf or minor pf, and the same for Limited division), and minimizing the number of actual divisions. I'm not sure I'd support that, but I'm willing to keep an open mind about that. Following that thought experiment, (just playing - nobody needs to get bent out of shape here), I'd consider an additional change to your proposal: a "low capacity" division (LowCap) which would have categories for Production, Single Stack, L-10, and Revolver (all of which would no longer be individual divisions - now they are categories within the division "LowCap"). Three divisions, and their category options:

Open

-major

-minor

Limited

-major

-minor

LowCap

-production

-single stack

-L-10

-revolver

I'm not sure that I'd support it, but it may be interesting to think about.

Production 15 would solve the issue. Those new people that show up with duty type guns in 9mm are always so confused on why they can only load 10. And they often don't have enough mags or pouches. So they shoot Limited minor against 2011's and they don't come back.

Having Production 15 would get them to stay in the sport with the gun they already have.

[Chills1994]

d_striker wrote:

Production 15 would solve the issue. Those new people that show up with duty type guns in 9mm are always so confused on why they can only load 10. And they often don't have enough mags or pouches. So they shoot Limited minor against 2011's and they don't come back.

Having Production 15 would get them to stay in the sport with the gun they already have.

Shooting your first match regardless of equipment/division can be humbling.

There is no guarantee that if they shot Production 15 they would have come back, either.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Chills1994

[d_striker]

d_striker wrote:

Production 15 would solve the issue. Those new people that show up with duty type guns in 9mm are always so confused on why they can only load 10. And they often don't have enough mags or pouches. So they shoot Limited minor against 2011's and they don't come back.

Having Production 15 would get them to stay in the sport with the gun they already have.

Shooting your first match regardless of equipment/division can be humbling.

There is no guarantee that if they shot Production 15 they would have come back, either.

You're correct there is no guarantee, but it gives them a few less excuses to not come back.

[Chills1994]

Brooke has posted the first intelligent post of this thread. Or at least the first intelligent sentence. If there aren't enough places to shoot, start your own uspsa range. I'd be willing to kick in alot more than $500 if I were in that situation, and our club bylaws would exclude fudds and other action-pistol haters.

If you have all the shooting interest that some claim in this thread, purpose to form a group, raise some money, and buy your own land. 200 interested people willing to put in $500 a piece in exchange for life membership in the new club will in much of the country buy you some land. The development of that land is a long term plan to include more and more activities. If you have the shooters already all that is needed is some leadership to get everybody together. It's work but it will succeed if you try.

An acre is 4,840 square yards.

Yards!

Just to make the math easy, let's chop that up into quarters...so 1,210 yards. A pistol bay that is 50 yards deep bay by 25 yards wide is 1,250 square yards. So neglecting or negating the thickness of the side berms and the back berm you could get almost 4 bays into or onto just one acre.

And of course, you would have to buy X amount of land mainly beyond the back berm for like an "impact area".

$500 would be cheap to buy into a life membership to a "practical pistol range", especially considering that most members only outdoor ranges around here charge $250 for the first year of membership and then $150 per year after that, if...IIIIFFF!...they complete their workdays that first year.

The one club that I am a Life member at decided to tack on an assessment of $35 a month to use the range. My life membership to the club cost me $2,000, but since I didn't pay the monthly assessment at all over the course of 2 plus years, I can't shoot at the range.

EDIT: Soooo...with that said, I am really hesitant to buy into anything that says "Life" especially organizations like USPSA and the NRA because they can always come out with policies I don't agree with, and it makes "voting with my pocketbook" (or my feet) by leaving the organization a trickier situation.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Chills1994

[GunBugBit]

It seems a pretty small percentage of newbies I've seen in the last 9 months return for more matches. Not sure what it is, whether they're disappointed they're not as good as they thought, or they find the environment intimidating, or what. Most of our members are very approachable and friendly so I don't think there's much to the latter. Our practice matches feel too crowded when more than 75 show up. Sixty and below feels much more comfortable. We have capacity to grow in Steel Challenge and 3-gun -- those matches are pretty sparsely attended. The monthly USPSA-sanctioned matches have good attendance and sometimes it's almost an hour wait to get through a stage (it's worse elsewhere, I know). Growth of this sport is pretty self-limiting due to the commitment involved; a small sliver of the population will even ever try it, and only a small slice of that crowd will stick with it.

[kevin c]

The sport originally developed with dedicated shooters. Its membership started out with and grew with dedicated shooters. These people already loved shooting and a lot of their free time revolved around shooting or related activities. They were willing to commit to making what they love to do grow better (and larger) and the people they brought to the range that represented the early increases in membership were largely, I am willing to bet, folks who already were shooting and really into it.

Now we are expanding and drawing (inevitably, I think) people who are more casual shooters. They may shoot the way they ski or play tennis or go mountain biking- on occasion, with friends, out of curiosity. Of that potentially large number a lot will give it up as not interesting, too dangerous, too expensive, too difficult to get to where the action is, but there are a few who will like it and pursue it further, trying to improve their performance, like some who will take lessons, get a season pass or buy the high end bike. Of that number a smaller number will be bitten by the bug and dedicate a large part or all of their lives to their new addiction, like the ski and beach bums. An even smaller number have the interest, ability and means to actively further the sport by developing products, teaching, or developing new resorts, building new trails, dealing with the legal aspects and dealing also with the infighting of different factions with differing priorities. Action shooting is no different.

I don't find it at a surprising that most newbies don't come back. I have helped run my club's intro course for new shooters for years, and find, as did my predecessors, that 1 out of 10 coming back for more than one or two matches is as much as can be hoped for. But as frustrating as that might be, we NEED the new blood. So I am willing to keep at it, and welcome any ideas that draw new interest, whether from other shooters or folks new to guns. Yes the latter take a lot of time, but all of us were there at the beginning, and I think most of us can think back to somebody who helped us, a parent, a friend, somebody at the range, who introduced us to shooting and mentored us through the first steps.

We will just have to winnow through the chaff to find the few who really help the sport survive. If that means finding extra capacity some how to deal with the more casual shooters then we will have to find a way, because to turn away the new people turns away the ones who might make a big difference down the line.

[motosapiens]

Production 15 would solve the issue. Those new people that show up with duty type guns in 9mm are always so confused on why they can only load 10. And they often don't have enough mags or pouches. So they shoot Limited minor against 2011's and they don't come back.

Having Production 15 would get them to stay in the sport with the gun they already have.

wouldn't they be confused why they couldn't load 17 or 18?

do you think they would do any better if they were shooting 2011's in their first match against 2011's?

I don't, and I don't think we need to change the rules to soften the blow for people who get discouraged when they find out that shooting well takes practice.

In my experience, the people that are suited to competition get hooked right away and keep coming back. But we do also sometimes get new shooters who just aren't the kind of people that enjoy competitive sports. Maybe they'd like it better if it didn't take as long or if the round count was lower or if it was easier, or whatever, but I don't really care. We already have plenty of people coming to matches, and will probably have more than we can handle this year, and will have to take some steps to accomodate them.

Lots of people try bicycle racing or motorcycle racing too, and discover that it's not really their thing, and the gulf between them and even the average competitors is too daunting, and they'd rather go back to play riding. Fine with me.

[d_striker]

It seems a pretty small percentage of newbies I've seen in the last 9 months return for more matches. Not sure what it is, whether they're disappointed they're not as good as they thought, or they find the environment intimidating, or what. Most of our members are very approachable and friendly so I don't think there's much to the latter. Our practice matches feel too crowded when more than 75 show up. Sixty and below feels much more comfortable. We have capacity to grow in Steel Challenge and 3-gun -- those matches are pretty sparsely attended. The monthly USPSA-sanctioned matches have good attendance and sometimes it's almost an hour wait to get through a stage (it's worse elsewhere, I know). Growth of this sport is pretty self-limiting due to the commitment involved; a small sliver of the population will even ever try it, and only a small slice of that crowd will stick with it.

What kind of guns are the newbs showing up with and what division do they end up shooting?

[d_striker]

Production 15 would solve the issue. Those new people that show up with duty type guns in 9mm are always so confused on why they can only load 10. And they often don't have enough mags or pouches. So they shoot Limited minor against 2011's and they don't come back.

Having Production 15 would get them to stay in the sport with the gun they already have.

wouldn't they be confused why they couldn't load 17 or 18? Less confused than 10. I'd be open to 16, or 17 also.

do you think they would do any better if they were shooting 2011's in their first match against 2011's? Of course not but that's not relevant to the discussion.

I don't, and I don't think we need to change the rules to soften the blow for people who get discouraged when they find out that shooting well takes practice.

We're not changing the rules. Production 10 can stay. Production 15/16/17 would be a new provisional division. It has already been confirmed by many that more provisional divisions are good for the sport.

In my experience, the people that are suited to competition get hooked right away and keep coming back. But we do also sometimes get new shooters who just aren't the kind of people that enjoy competitive sports. Maybe they'd like it better if it didn't take as long or if the round count was lower or if it was easier, or whatever, but I don't really care. We already have plenty of people coming to matches, and will probably have more than we can handle this year, and will have to take some steps to accomodate them.

Lots of people try bicycle racing or motorcycle racing too, and discover that it's not really their thing, and the gulf between them and even the average competitors is too daunting, and they'd rather go back to play riding. Fine with me.

Edited January 26, 2016 by d_striker

[Nimitz]

I am still not understanding or wrapping my mind around the why USPSA needs to grow?

I posted in another thread today, the one about "why is Limited 10 still around?" started by Nimitz, I think, that it is just a simple matter of comparing all the classifier scores/fees submitted from the various divisions for all of 2015.

Then comparing those numbers to 2014.

EDIT: I don't quite get the diversity comment either.

Again, want women to show up, then install real bathrooms with real running water.

EDIT #2: as far as getting non-whites to shoot matches, ...I am not touching that with a ten foot pole...

I think we should figure out a way to get more democrats in the sport ...

How about a VID division (voter ID card) if it says 'democrat' you get to shoot in that division ... Doesn't matter what gun/equipment/PF you shoot since this is the division of inclusion ...

[Nimitz]

Production 15 would solve the issue. Those new people that show up with duty type guns in 9mm are always so confused on why they can only load 10. And they often don't have enough mags or pouches. So they shoot Limited minor against 2011's and they don't come back.

Having Production 15 would get them to stay in the sport with the gun they already have.

wouldn't they be confused why they couldn't load 17 or 18?

do you think they would do any better if they were shooting 2011's in their first match against 2011's?

I don't, and I don't think we need to change the rules to soften the blow for people who get discouraged when they find out that shooting well takes practice.

In my experience, the people that are suited to competition get hooked right away and keep coming back. But we do also sometimes get new shooters who just aren't the kind of people that enjoy competitive sports. Maybe they'd like it better if it didn't take as long or if the round count was lower or if it was easier, or whatever, but I don't really care. We already have plenty of people coming to matches, and will probably have more than we can handle this year, and will have to take some steps to accomodate them.

Lots of people try bicycle racing or motorcycle racing too, and discover that it's not really their thing, and the gulf between them and even the average competitors is too daunting, and they'd rather go back to play riding. Fine with me.

I think this something that most don't really appreciate .... This is a competitive sport not just a sport. There are tons of people who love to fish but wouldn't dream of ever entering a bass fishing tournament or Marlin/sailfish tournament ....

Like Moto said, competition is not for everyone. Unlike many activities the only way to participate in practical shooting is to attend a competition. I think a lot of the reasons some try our sport but don't stick around can be traced to the competition aspect. People try practical shooting because it sounds like a blast but for many valid individual reasons get turned off by the competition aspect. They like shooting but not competitive shooting ....

Edited January 27, 2016 by Nimitz

[d_striker]

Production 15 would solve the issue. Those new people that show up with duty type guns in 9mm are always so confused on why they can only load 10. And they often don't have enough mags or pouches. So they shoot Limited minor against 2011's and they don't come back.

Having Production 15 would get them to stay in the sport with the gun they already have.

wouldn't they be confused why they couldn't load 17 or 18?

do you think they would do any better if they were shooting 2011's in their first match against 2011's?

I don't, and I don't think we need to change the rules to soften the blow for people who get discouraged when they find out that shooting well takes practice.

In my experience, the people that are suited to competition get hooked right away and keep coming back. But we do also sometimes get new shooters who just aren't the kind of people that enjoy competitive sports. Maybe they'd like it better if it didn't take as long or if the round count was lower or if it was easier, or whatever, but I don't really care. We already have plenty of people coming to matches, and will probably have more than we can handle this year, and will have to take some steps to accomodate them.

Lots of people try bicycle racing or motorcycle racing too, and discover that it's not really their thing, and the gulf between them and even the average competitors is too daunting, and they'd rather go back to play riding. Fine with me.

I think this something that most don't really appreciate .... This is a competitive sport not just a sport. There are tons of people who love to fish but wouldn't dream of ever entering a bass fishing tournament or Marlin/sailfish tournament ....

Like Moto said, competition is not for everyone. Unlike many activities the only way to participate in practical shooting is to attend a competition. I think a lot of the reasons some try our sport but don't stick around can be traced to the competition aspect. People try practical shooting because it sounds like a blast but for many valid individual reasons get turned off by the competition aspect. They like shooting but not competitive shooting ....

Nah....I think we just don't have the right provisional division for them yet.

[Chris iliff]

Do MD's and RO's/setter up'ers who get paid and/or comp'ed match fees ever get burnt out?

I did

[Nimitz]

I have no idea what staff who get comped actually get but I have to imagine it doesn't amount to more than pocket change ...

[Beastly]

Getting a match fee waived for being a squad 'CRO' at a local seems appropriate.

Getting a match fee waived for setting up stages is a nice gesture but makes no economic sense relative to the effort.

It's all a labor of love until you burn out.

[sperman]

Do MD's and RO's/setter up'ers who get paid and/or comp'ed match fees ever get burnt out?

I did

Yep. A $15/$20 match fee doesn't come close to compensating for getting to the range 3+ hours early, and shooting poorly because you're tired before you ever strap on your gear. I enjoyed the challenge of designing a good stage, but after a few years I just wanted to show up and shoot.

[Nimitz]

we do setup the week of the match, during the day or after work a stage here and there but it still is a lot of effort, particularly during the summer here in FL. As the SC MD I always waive match fees for those who help setup but it's more of a gesture than any real incentive to help ...