danjordan78 Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 What's your split time from last shot in the first box to first shot in the center box? Include your USPSA/Steel classification or normal total time for the stage if you would. Trying to compile some stats for average movement time by skill level of shooter. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinsr98 Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I'm a B class USPSA shooter and I'm at 2 sec on average Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I have no class. Just a regular guy who used to shoot SC matches. My transitions average 1.7. On a "good" day they run 1.5ish. Spent hours running that stage with a .22 to try to improve! What are yours running right now, if I may ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) so with a 22 if your 1st shot was around .6, 2nd around .4, then a 1.7-1.5 transition, finishing with .5 on each of the last 2 transitions that would give you 3.5 sec - 3.7 sec ave run times or , 10.5 - 11.1 sec stage times, right? Edited December 25, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 My last sanctioned match 2 weeks ago was a 13.13 stage time (4.23, 4.53, 4.40). I'll be shooting this in training next week so I'll record some transition times and let you know ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 so with a 22 if your 1st shot was around .6, 2nd around .4, then a 1.7-1.5 transition, finishing with .5 on each of the last 2 transitions that would give you 3.5 sec - 3.7 sec ave run times or , 10.5 - 11.1 sec stage times, right? My times (without looking at my records) were around the low 4s. Some runs were slightly slower, not many faster. Usually in 20 runs I would have 3 or 4 in the 3.7 - 3.85 range. With my centerfire I was not that quick. Probably ran into the high 4s or low 5s. First shot with the .22 was probably more like .7ish. (I start on #1) Never could reliably get under 5 comfortably with the centerfire - on demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Dan: I'm sure you know this but as a baseline the "top 4" at the World Championships in Nov ran 11.68-12.13 stage times for an ave run time of 3.89 - 4.04 secs in rimfire pistol ... one 'crazy' guy ran it in 8.88 secs but his overall was only 85.02 secs. After the 'top 10' no one ran it under 13 secs.and with 8 of the top 10 running the match under 80 secs they would all be Steel GMs according top the new classification system ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 I've looked at overall times for the top shooters. You can infer a little from them, but not the detail I'm looking for on that specific split time. I am going to ask several of the top ones too what their splits are as well. Also going to get as many videos as I can into the ShotMaxx app and check split times. I'm as much interested in the average shooter as the best shooters. Trying to figure out what a reasonable non movement penalty should be for different classes. A C-class shooter should have a longer penalty like 2.5-3.5 seconds per run where as a master class would be closer to 1.5 or so I'm guessing. I don't think that particular split is much different for center fire vs Rimfire as the target to target transition and low ready is where time is saved. I'm in a wheelchair so don't move on my runs. Otherwise I would have a ridiculously long split and it would be almost impossible with rimfire and no holster. On the other hand, I don't like when RMs don't want to give a penalty just because I'm in a wheelchair. It should be fair across the board, so there should be a penalty of some sort. Would like to see it standardized as much as possible. If you look at the results from the World Speed Shooting Championships I won Outer Limits, but that's only because Troy refused to assess me a penalty. Didn't like that... The more data I can compile the better I can come up with reasonable numbers to suggest. Even if they don't standardize it across the board, I would like the data for myself so I can penalize myself and have justification for RMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 A 1.5 second penalty per run added on would have meant I finished 11th overall in Rimfire vs 9th so still happy with that:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 ah, now I understand what's going on ... sorry, should have put 2 and 2 together & realized that was you ... great shooting at the WSSC BTW ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoracer Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I have taken procedurals in IDPA because I have a really hard time getting down or up from kneeling. I had to analyze how I was moving in Outer Limits last year because my times were in the 20s range even in Rimfire. Eventually I found a way to trim my times down into the 16s with the possibility of getting down to the 14s in the future. All because I went over the amount of movement and broke it down into the number and placement of my steps, how I positioned the gun, and the angle at which I attacked the boxes and the resultant target order. Hopefully if I can lose say 20 lbs. before the season gets going in March my knees will feel better and shooting a number of monthly all steel USPSA matches which I have found I can do will get my body speed up. But analyzing and breaking down the movement rather than just moving has paid the most dividends thru the present. It also required changing my target order which I found became a benefit and not a liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) So the results from my session yesterday with Outer Limits showed some interesting data: I ran 7 runs cold at my normal match pace with an average time of 4.26 secs. For those runs my box transition time ave came in at 2 secs. I then switched to speed mode where my aver time was around 3.56 secs and my box transition times ave dropped to around 1.75 secs. 3 runs were 5/5 and 4 were 4/5. The interesting part is that Max's time at the WSSC was only 11.68 or an ave of 3.88/run. I'm pretty sure I've seen him post sub 11 sec times before which would be more in line with 3.5 sec aves or better. Since I'm fairly certain his transitions between plates is faster than me that would seem ti indicate that you're probably looking at box transition penalties around 1.75-2 secs for GM level shooters if you go with your idea of a penalty based on classification. Also, remember, he is at the top end of GMs so the transition times for 'ave GMs' could be slower ...I think I have some video of him shooting Outer Limits at the Nationals so I may be able to ferret out his actual times .. Edited December 30, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 I watched all of the super squad shoot Outer Limits at the World Shoot. The top guys that were in contention didn't have a great stage. It was REALLY close going into that last stage and they were pushing hard. Quite a few missed shots and stutter steps in and out of the boxes. Might be better to take the times from the ranking/classification page on the Steel Challenge website to see what is possible at different classification levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzShooter Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 According to the new rule book there is no penalty for a wheelchair bound shooter to shoot from the center box for all runs. I'm in a wheelchair also and I intend to take advantage of the new rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 I personally do not think it's fair to not take a penalty of any sort. Everyone else has to move and take the extra time to do that, why shouldn't I?. I want to be competitive and compete against the best, and if I have a 4.5-6 second advantage just because I'm in a wheelchair, that's not right to me. I'm finishing in the top 10 or so now at national level matches. It would be a pretty hollow victory if I won and knew that I automatically had a big advantage over everyone else!. Actually, doesn't matter if I'm first or last, I want what I deserve, not what someone is willing to give me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Ok, I got around to looking at the video I shot of Max at the US Steel Nationals in March and here's what I found out ... First, the runs were with his Production gun so his transition time between boxes may be slightly faster with an optic sight since he should be able to shoot the 1st target entering the center box faster than with irons ... Second, I only counted runs where he shot clean between the 2nd plate in the left box and the first plate in the center box Of his 4 runs, 2 were clean and his transition times were 1.6 secs & 1.57 secs. he had a 1.5 sec transition but he missed the first shot entering the center box so that time being .1 sec faster is not a surprise. It would be interesting to see if his rim fire transition times are any different ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) According to the new rule book there is no penalty for a wheelchair bound shooter to shoot from the center box for all runs. I'm in a wheelchair also and I intend to take advantage of the new rule.What new rulebook are you talking about? The only rulebook we have is the 2013 Provisional Rulebook which (obviously) was never approved ...I know for a fact that Mike Foley intends to update and approve a new rulebook for Steel Challenge and I can't imagine there not being a penalty for no movement in Outer Limits. Becuase if true, everyone will just stand in the center box and shoot the stage and nullify the movement .... Just for fun I tried this yesterday because I was curious and I shot a 7.2 sec stage time without even trying hard ... Look at dan's time for Outer Limits at the WSSC, it was an 8.88. The next nearest time was an 11.68. The year before the top time was a 10.52 ... Pretty obvious there needs to be a penalty for no movement .... Enjoy your "advantage" while it lasts ... Edited December 30, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I think the box to box time for average GMs is 1.5-1.7 seconds. Edited December 30, 2015 by MWP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 What new rulebook are you talking about? The only rulebook we have is the 2013 Provisional Rulebook which (obviously) was never approved ... He's probably referring to our current one as the new one. The rule in question here is as follows: 3.4.1 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement. The Range Master may waive or modify procedural penalties in respect of a competitor who has a significant physical disability prior to the competitor making his attempt at the course of fire. (as an example, a wheelchair bound competitor might shoot all of Outer Limits from the center box without penalty). We had a wheel-chair bound competitor at our match earlier this year and he shot outer limits from the center box. I elected, as MD, to not assess any penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 I prefer not to leave it up to MDs. Standardize it in the rules so everyone is playing on a level field, no matter the range or match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Yep, this is not a good rule as it sits .... You think any of the top competitiors are going to be impressed when Dan gets his times down a little more and then smokes them because he has a 4-5 sec advantage in Outer Limits? If a wheelchair bound competitior is allowed to shoot OL from the center box without penalty why am I not allowed also? Competitive equity is a huge part of the rules in our sport and this if left unchanged flies in the face of that. We can't have RMs feeling sorry for certain competitiors and giving them a huge advantage - nor do I think most (like Dan) would want them to. Dan: What did they do for you at the US Steel Nationals? I know it's not a sanctioned event but they use the SCSA rulebook ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoracer Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Maybe we could all even it up by shooting from a wheelchair also. A new "prop" for SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 My club loves doing USPSA stages in a hospital wheelchair I bought them at a garage sale! Gives me a chance to laugh at them every once in a while:) No penalty last year at Steel Nats. Mike didn't want to give me one even when I asked him too. He said if I broke 100 he would consider it. Well, my 89 in rimfire was a good argument. I will have one this year for sure. That's part of the reason I'm trying to get this figured out now so I can go in with data and some justification for the penalty I ask for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 that's disappointing that he did that .... only assessing a penalty when you are good enough that it matters is not the kind of consistent behavior we expect of our RMs ... I may have to look into getting a wheelchair .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzShooter Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I admire Dan's opinion about his getting penalized or not. Everyone is not as talented as he is and I congratulate him. I'm disappointed in all the people that want to get a wheelchair to game a stage. Do you laugh at handicapped people as well? What is this world coming to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now