Production Major

[ES13Raven]

Why is only minor power factor allowed in Production?

If someone wants to shoot a Glock 22 at 165 PF, why not let them be scored major?

[jcameron996]

Not a big uspsa guy but I'm pretty sure you can. I think everything is scored major in production regardless of power factor hence no advantage to the larger caliber.

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[motosapiens]

because if you kept the same 10-round capacity limit, everyone would have to shoot major or else suck. there are several divisions like that already.

[ES13Raven]

because if you kept the same 10-round capacity limit, everyone would have to shoot major or else suck. there are several divisions like that already.

Same reason why not many shoot L10 minor, but at least the option exists.

Production guns are different than Limited guns, but why not reward additional recoil of 165 PF like the other divisions?

Edited December 7, 2015 by ES13Raven

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: You could shoot limited 10. Thanks, Eric

[ES13Raven]

Hello: You could shoot limited 10. Thanks, Eric

L10 has several equipment advantages: race holsters, mag pouch locations, modifications allowed, gas pedals etc.

Im talking about competing against others with Production legal guns, but having the option to shoot major.

Edited December 7, 2015 by ES13Raven

[Gooldylocks]

Hello: You could shoot limited 10. Thanks, Eric

L10 has several equipment advantages: race holsters, mag pouch locations, modifications allowed, gas pedals etc.

Im talking about competing against others with Production legal guns, but having the option to shoot major.

Because the good shooters would be pretty much required to shoot major to stay competitive, and if the capacity limit was still 10 (vs 8 in SS) then it would just become L-10 without the pretty guns and fancy holsters. Don't mess with Production, people like it the way it is.

::ETA:: also, the cool production guns that most people are gravitating towards are pretty much limited guns, except with one DA pull at the beginning of the stage. A SII/SIII, CZ Shadow, X5... these things have ridiculous triggers that rival those in many limited guns, and weigh the same or more. 40 Major out of a Stock III would be softer than out of an STI Edge.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Gooldylocks

[copecowboy22]

Hello: You could shoot limited 10. Thanks, Eric

For the moment.

[Gooldylocks]

because if you kept the same 10-round capacity limit, everyone would have to shoot major or else suck. there are several divisions like that already.

+1

[copecowboy22]

I'd like to see 8 round major in production

[ES13Raven]

I'd like to see 8 round major in production

Why not 10 round major like in L10?

[motosapiens]

Hello: You could shoot limited 10. Thanks, Eric

L10 has several equipment advantages: race holsters, mag pouch locations, modifications allowed, gas pedals etc.

Im talking about competing against others with Production legal guns, but having the option to shoot major.

but if it were an option, it wouldn't actually be an option, any more than it is in limited. it would be required if you didn't want to suck. there are already plenty of division where you have to shoot major in order to not suck, why mess with the most popular division? what is broken about it?

[Gooldylocks]

I'd like to see 8 round major in production

Why not 10 round major like in L10?

Because it would BE L10.

(the fancy holsters and mag holders don't actually matter, and like I said shooting 170 pf ammo out of your Stock II/III is gonna be as soft as any limited gun out there, except maybe those cool tungsten sleeved ones!)

Hello: You could shoot limited 10. Thanks, Eric

L10 has several equipment advantages: race holsters, mag pouch locations, modifications allowed, gas pedals etc.

Im talking about competing against others with Production legal guns, but having the option to shoot major.

but if it were an option, it wouldn't actually be an option, any more than it is in limited. it would be required if you didn't want to suck. there are already plenty of division where you have to shoot major in order to not suck, why mess with the most popular division? what is broken about it?

Yet again, +1

[ES13Raven]

Why mess with the most popular division? what is broken about it?

Never said it was broken, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved.

[copecowboy22]

I'd like to see 8 round major in production

Why not 10 round major like in L10?

I don't see that ever happening. There's no advantage to shoot minor. I'm thinking make it like SS 8 major and 10 minor. Your choice, capacity or points. I'd be ok letting L10 go if they added major to production.

[Garmil]

Production exists as a division because it has its own unique rules. Why try to take away what makes it different?

[Gooldylocks]

STI Eagle: 39 oz

STI Edge: 44 oz

Custom 6" heavily lightened limited gun: 33-35oz

People happily shoot 40 major out of these guns, and definitely don't complain about "additional recoil."

Tanfo Stock II: 44 oz

Tanfo Stock III: 45.6 oz

CZ SP-01 Shadow: 41 oz

You are absolutely going to "have to" shoot major to be "competitive".

Not gonna happen, sorry dude.

[ES13Raven]

Because it would BE L10. (the fancy holsters and mag holders don't actually matter

You are saying all of these things allowed in Limited give no advantage? Then why do so many Limited shooters use them?

I think the divisions are quite different:

Limited = Quick draw race holsters allowed at multiple positions

Production = Standard, carry type holsters - limited on positioning and distance

Limited = No restriction on Magazine Carriers, quick draw magnetic allowed, allowed at multiple positions

Production = Restrictions on type, distance and positioning

Limited = No restrictions on handgun size or weight

Production = must fit in the box and make weight

Limited = Any Make & Model, Multiple modifications and aftermarket accessories allowed including magwells, slide lightening,gas pedals etc.

Production = Must be on the list, very few modifications allowed, must remain mostly stock, all safeties must remain operational

Limited = Single Action Only, ultra short & light triggers

Production = Striker-fired, SA/DA, DAO - must start hammer down

Edited December 7, 2015 by ES13Raven

[9x45]

Not a big uspsa guy but I'm pretty sure you can. I think everything is scored major in production regardless of power factor hence no advantage to the larger caliber.

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Obviously, you are not. You can shoot a 245 Power Floor, but EVERYTHING in Production is scored MINOR. Why even comment if you don't read the rules??

Appendix D4

1 Minimum power factor for Major

Not applicable

2 Minimum power factor for Minor

125

[9x45]

Raven, you are trying to make sense out of the rules, for some reason, don't. The rules are just the rules. If I were the El Prez, there would only be 2 divisions: "Unlimited", pistol caliber only, no limitations on anything, 175 power floor and "As Manufactured" Box stock, factory only parts, 145 power floor, that's it.

[Gooldylocks]

Quick Draw race holster draw speed: 0.79 seconds to an A.

Uncle Mike's kydex $10 Glock holster: 0.84 seconds to an A. Is that 5 hundredths of a second on a going to win a match? Me thinks no.

Many Limited (and especially L10 it seems) shooters leave their magazines in the same place as their production rigs, for muscle memory. Magnets only matter on ammo on table stages, so you can pick up magazines and just smack them onto your belt, because the magnetic retention pouches aren't gonna save you any time over regular CR speed, bladetech, or DAA pouches (legal for Production).

No restrictions on size or weight, but the vast majority of people shoot either: 5" full length dust cover or 6" heavily lightened guns, both of which are similar or lighter in weight than the fancy production guns, so recoil should be very similar between them.

The modifications do help, but in practice for most shooters they probably make no huge difference. Magwells are probably one of the biggest modifications that can make an appreciable difference, but even that can be overcome with dryfire, and since most reloads are done on the move you wouldn't notice the couple tenths faster reload anyway during a stage.

Most SAO limited gun triggers: in the 2.5# range. Some lighter, some heavier.

Nice striker fired triggers, SA of the DA/SA guns can easily attain 2.5-3# range, I have personally felt sub 2 striker fired triggers. No one that is serous about the game is shooting a DAO. You have at a maximum 1 DA shot per stage (none on an unloaded start), if you choose to shoot a DA/SA gun; nicely tuned DA can be as low as 4-5 pounds.

Pretty similar if I do say so myself.

[ES13Raven]

Pretty similar if I do say so myself.

Not really.

Can a Master or Grand Master use either setup and do well? Of course. To them there might be very little difference.

I'm are not talking about high-end skill here - but your average Joe who is maybe C or B. You know, the majority of USPSA shooters.

Give that guy a S&W Sigma (its on the list) and a tricked out STI 2011, and see which one he does better with.

[Gooldylocks]

Just because it is on the list doesn't mean it is the best choice! A Kahr PM9 or Kel Tec P11 are on the list too, but that doesn't mean they are competitive. Giving that same guy a full house CZC accushadow or fully slicked up Tanfoglio is a much more accurate representation of what shooting a tricked out 2011 is like. You are comparing apples to eggplants.

And yes, Joe Average would probably still do better in the overall match standings shooting the 2011 than the production gun. But I would bet they would be in about the same place within their divisions. And if they were to shoot a full custom 2011 in L10 minor, and then their super fancy production gun, I bet they would be in ALMOST exactly the same place with both.

I don't have much/any evidence that isn't anecdotal to support that theory, but I still bet it would still happen.

::ETA:: The best way to pseudo-scientifically test this would be to have someone that is equal parts production and limited shooter (of any skill level), that has a 40 caliber production gun such as those listed above and also dedicated Limited blaster shoot the same match back to back with both, both shooting L10 major. That would demonstrate the point spread that having a magwell, race holster and maybe a thumbrest (if you have one) makes on overall placement.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Gooldylocks

[Garmil]

And why does any of that matter is the bigger question?

Different division rules, equipment, guns.

[mpolans]

Why is only minor power factor allowed in Production?

If someone wants to shoot a Glock 22 at 165 PF, why not let them be scored major?

I'm guessing because Production Division was conceived as a way to encourage newbies to give USPSA a try cheaply and allow as many folks to be competitive as possible, with guns they already own. If you allow major scoring in Production, it would make all 9x19 (the most popular centerfire handgun caliber in the world) caliber guns uncompetitive. Folks can shoot .40 loads hot enough for Production which isn't ideal, but it isn't quite the kiss of death of shooting minor when everyone else is shooting major.

Production has worked very well. Making big changes that would prompt an arms race is not a good idea. Frankly, I think allowing machining slides for aftermarket sights and other modifications were a big step in the wrong direction.