Witness Gold Team....38 Super or 40 S&W

[DenverDave]

I am in the market for a Witness Gold Team, (I currently own 2 Elite Match's so I am sold on Tanfoglio) my eyes are becoming old fart eyes, so I find a red dot a lot easier to work with so Open class is appealing.

I am having a hard time deciding between the 38 Super and the 40 S&W.
I do not have the time or patience to handload. So I plan on buying bulk from manufactures.

Since I have arthritis in my hands, I am looking for the most manageable recoil possible.
Don't want to have to worry about making Major.

I work 80+ hours a week on average so no time to fiddle with things.

I am currently running a G34 in production and it has been said, I look like a SilverBack Gorrilla running with a gun"

No in a nutshell, I just want an accurate gun that I can go to local matches I can enjoy shooting and have fun.

Also, is running a Burris Fastfire a "ok" choice for this gun. (have been running one on a custom G22, 4moa like it a lot) or your thoughts on the C-More Serendipity?...or other choices.

Any thoughts, help, input would be appreciated.

THANK YOU!

Edited September 2, 2015 by DenverDave

[GrumpyOne]

Welcome to the forum! The super will be the most manageable recoil, but the issue is gonna be finding super ammo.

I work away from.home, most.of the time, in fact I'm in a hotel room now, next week I will be out of the country working....and I still find time to reload. I would strongly suggest at least looking into it.

As for the dot, the Cmore is very hard to beat.

[Doc10mm]

Agree with the 38 super. If you don't care about making major, armscor, federal, winchester and Remington all make 38 super that you can find on sgammo.com, cheaperthandirt, and other websites. If you want to make major GECO makes major and you can find it for around 35 cents/round. You don't have to reload but it is fun.

[kneelingatlas]

Welcome Dave!

I'm a Tanfo junkie too if you're not going to reload and don't care about making major, why not 9mm?

Based on what you've said I think a 9mm Limited with a CMore would make you very happy. If you want the cool looks of the holes and the comp you could go with the 9mm Gold Team, but without handloading the right powders, the holes/comp don't make it shoot any flatter. A 40 GT is going to be hard in your hands using factory ammo and factory 38 doesn't give you anything factory 9 will except more cost.

[DenverDave]

Thanks everyone for the input, but I guess I was not clear on what I wrote....sorry about that.
I DO want to make Major....I just don't want to worry about playing around with loads that work.
In the Super 38 what load do you recommend....I know Atlanta Arms loads this...but it is a bit pricy, any other recommendations?
Thanks!

[kneelingatlas]

If you want to shoot major without reloading, 40 is the cheapest way, but without handloading the comp really does do anything for you. Why no reloading?

[DenverDave]

I don't reload mostly time....and distractions ( can't even run to the bathroom without interruption )
I own a Audio/Video production company that my clients think I am on the 24/7 365 plan....which is pretty well true.
Because of it, I have only been able to shoot 4 matches so far this year.......thus I want the maximum fun I can get when I can shoot a match.

On the .40 are off the shelf loads enough to get the comp and ports to work effectively?
How much less would you guess the recoil would be compared to my .40 Witness Elite Match?

Edited September 2, 2015 by DenverDave

[kneelingatlas]

Yes, the recoil of the .40 GT will be similar to a .40 match. No, factory ammo will not work the ports/comp effectively.

[DenverDave]

Suggested load for the 40 that will work with the comp? And suggested load that will work with the 38 Special?
Then I can make some calls to see if anybody can produce it for me.

Thanks

[BeerBaron]

I'd suggest get the 38 super and buy the Atlanta arms and ammo major pf ammo. A friend used it in his gold team and it makes major and runs the gun nicely. Collecting your brass should get you back 10c per case as you can sell it to reloaders once fired. That should help close the price gap between 40 and 38 super. Forget the ff3, a cmore slide ride is the way to go. For $50 you can change the dot module if you later want to try something other than 4moa.

40 is not really an ideal calibre for major pf open guns. They work best with light weight bullets and slow burning powders. Most 40 limited major loads are the total opposite (heavy bullets with fast burning powder).

The 38 gt with suitable major ammo will be a nicer running gun and even the basic 126mm mags will hold 23 rounds with a grams spring and follower and henning base pad. Capacity in 40 is much reduced.

[GrumpyOne]

I don't reload mostly time....and distractions ( can't even run to the bathroom without interruption )

I own a Audio/Video production company that my clients think I am on the 24/7 365 plan....which is pretty well true.

Because of it, I have only been able to shoot 4 matches so far this year.......thus I want the maximum fun I can get when I can shoot a match.

On the .40 are off the shelf loads enough to get the comp and ports to work effectively?

How much less would you guess the recoil would be compared to my .40 Witness Elite Match?

That's 2 more matches than I've shot.

[GrumpyOne]

http://www.k8nd.com/ipscload.htm

38 super loads are numerous.

http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38%20Super&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

[Walküre]

A friend used it in his gold team and it makes major and runs the gun nicely.

Interesting.

Back when I had a V12 Gold Team, I had to run ridiculous amounts of powder just to make major, and the gun wasn't even close to being flat.

Some numbers for perspective:

The Gold Team V12 took 10.2gr of 3N38 to make just barely over 170PF, what I consider my minimum "safe" major target PF.

My current no-holes custom with 9.8gr of 3N38 yields 184PF+, way overkill, and nearly half a grain less powder.

Based on both personal and second-hand experience, I would be very concerned trying to make major PF out of a GT V12 with anything but custom handloads.

[BeerBaron]

I thought the same thing. My v12 in super takes 10.2gn 3n38 to make 172 pf with a 124gn CMJ. I can only go by what he told me but he did shoot the world shoot with it (yes lower pf there). Obviously you would want to buy a small quantity and test. He did say the aaa super major hit 170pf in his v12.

[kernelofwisdom]

The Atlanta Arms is going major in the V8 I have but it's under on the Infinity (but way over on the Dawson). It'd be dicey buying the gun on the premise that AAA will safely get you to major.

I had lots of reasons not to reload but I do to get 38 SC for the guns I've got. Once set up with a progressive, loading up the ammo takes very little time. My backup plan was find someone local who would do the reloading for me (but now I don't mind it) - I would research that before banking on AAA. It might work for the gun, but it might not.

If you really want major and you really want a GT and you really don't want to reload, my advice is find someone local who will do it for you.

With the cost of brass for 38 Super being what it is, AAA's price for their stuff to me is fair.

[kneelingatlas]

Dave,

I'm going to risk coming off as a jerk and give it to you straight:

"arthritis in my hands"

"looking for the most manageable recoil possible"

"I do not have the time or patience to handload"

"no time to fiddle with things"

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Open is not for you I shoot Open, I LOVE to fidlde with guns/loads, I'm young, strong and I still get pains in my hands from time to time.

"my eyes are becoming old fart eyes, so I find a red dot a lot easier to work with"

Don't fret, USPSA has just created Carry Optics specifically for you

[kernelofwisdom]

Great thought there. Lots of factory loads available in Carry Optics (and for reasonable pricing!) and the tinkering factor goes down dramatically.

[DenverDave]

Thank you for the advice on Carry Optics, and appreciate the perspective from a young man.

I already have a G22 that I had a slide melt done to it that is ready for Carry Optics, verified with tech at USPSA HQ on what is legal and not legal for that class.

But I want to run Open and I want a GT.
I'm not trying to win a National Championship....not really worried about trying to win a State Championship.
If I can't make the load I am using make Major....then oh well.
Happy when I shoot well....mildy disappointed when I don't.

And as in all things....always strive to get better.
I want the GT because I love metal guns, and I appreciate the craftsmanship in the Elite line of Tanfoglio's
Bottomline....I just want to have fun.

So back to the topic....38 Super or 40 ...learning a lot from this discussion, much appreciated.

Edited September 4, 2015 by DenverDave

[BeerBaron]

kernel of wisdom has given you the right advice.

I'd suggest if it makes major in the V8 GT's the AAA super should also make major in the V12's (they are fairly close). however, if it didn't all that happens is you'll be scored minor. That's not such a big deal. you can still compete for score and the gun will still run like it has a major load as the load still has plenty of gas to work the comp, light bullet etc. basically what you want for an open gun.

for local matches with no chrono etc you basically just 'declare' your PF anyway so it's reasonable if buying ammo loaded as major to declare it as major.

the other great option he suggested is finding someone local to load for you. I'm sure you'll find a shooting buddy who is already loading 38 super who want mind running up some loads for you, possibly for a small fee. That is probably the best option. you buy some starline brass, 124gn projies, 3N38 powder and some primers. give it to a mate and get them loaded up.

The 40 is just really not a suitable calibre for this style of gun. apart from the way it'll shoot the capacity will be much less. factory mags hold 14 in 40. with grams guts and henning pad that may go up to 17? in 38 super it's 23 no problem and possibly 24 with super comp brass in the factory K38 mags with grams guts and henning pad. 5 or 6 rounds a mag is worth thinking about in open. especially against guys running 24 rounds in their 140mm 2011 mags and 29 rounds or even more in their 170mm mags.

[Austin111]

Dave,

I have a V12 GT (now with interim optics) and have fired 200 rounds of GECO 38 Super to break it in. I have AAA 38 Super Major PF I bought back in May before I found a supply of 3n38 and plan on running the AAA thru my Chrono (Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph)

next week.

I'll also chron the Geco, Prvi Partizan 38 Super +P I have in my stash.

There is a guy in Connecticut, http://jjrammo.com/that will formulate a load for your specific need. He takes your requirement and then supplies a few step-up batches until your goals are met. A number of guys in the area USPSA use his product. His website only keeps a few "standard" loads up to date, you will need to discuss directly with him. He is very busy, so reach out when you have finalized your platform.

[DenverDave]

Thank you for all the feedback, it is much appreciated.
I know that the 38 Super comes with a second barrel without porting can anyone tell me if the .40 comes with two barrels?

[selecw]

Very subjectively ... my .40 Stock III which I shoot Major Limited has the same felt recoil as my 9mm Major Gold Team. My hands get sore between matches because I shoot a LOT and am an old(ish) crapper. I never notice the sore hands DURING a match.

When I looked at my match scores shooting Limited Minor (Witness Match) I averaged 30 points less.

Don't know what my point is here but I have a ton of fun shooting all of them, and the 9mm has no felt recoil!!

[Austin111]

Dave,

Made it to the outdoor range last evening with just enough time to measure the Atlanta Arms Ammo 125gr in my V12 38 Super GT (with V12 Barrel). before the crowds took over the rifle range.

1318

1321

1320

1411 outlier removed from calculation.

1321

1324

1319

Just makes Major PF @ 165,062

I didn't bother clocking the PP or Geco when the AAA barely made it.

I'll use the AAA up at a local match. AAA was the most accurate of the three (AAA, GECO and PP). It has a harsh kick to it (as does the GECO). Muzzle rise was disturbingly apparent in all three. PP was softest, but the least accurate and too long OAL, failure to chamber multiple times.

I ran 100 rnds of AAA, 50 GECO and 50 PP. Again, only the velocity was quantitative, the others...my personal observations. Total rounds in my V12 now: 600.

I love the gun, continue having problems keeping the single sided mount in place. Until I get the mount resolved, I have no confidence shooting this in competition, will revert to my GlockNStein this weekend.

$2,000+ and I am pulling out a Glock. Haven't lost my enthusiasm for the V12, just limited amount of time to debug and wait for missing parts from France.

[Big Nick]

Denver Dave,

I've been kicking .38 Supers and 9mm's behind for the last 9 months with my .40 GT. I send the boys home crying with their STI's and CZ's dragging behind them. I think you know what my recommendation is;)

Edited September 16, 2015 by Big Nick

[DenverDave]

Here is my update on what I wound up doing.

- Purchased a Tanfoglio LIMITED in 40 cal to run in Limited class.

- Sent my Dillon press back to the factory to get refurbished.

My FFL looked for the last two weeks for a GT in 38 Super for me but only found 1 GT in 40 cal available, so.....

- Last week, Purchased a Tanfoglio GT in 40 cal

- One of my shooting buddies purchased the Dillion press with full automation / electric motor, he also picked up a 40 cal die set figuring

he would talk me into buying my ammo from him.

Took both of them to the range day before yesterday....love them

If schedule allows, taking them both of them up to Henning this week to get a few refinements on them.

Still considering picking up a GT in 38 Super when they become available...but we will see.

I want to SINCERLY THANK everyone for their input, much appreciated.

And BIG THANK YOU to Big Nick, you have been VERY helpful.

Edited September 16, 2015 by DenverDave