CJW Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Let me clarify. First, time-plus means that, unless all your stages take about the same amount of time to complete, a short fast stage will not mean as much to your overall match performance as a longer stage. Second point, I feel the penalty values in the 3GN rules are too little *period*. When a total match score is 500+ seconds (at the very top and more like 800+ seconds for the big middle of the bell curve), a 2.5 sec penalty is pretty minimal. If the stages were normalized to point values, then I would *still* think the penalties are too small because on long stages they would not make that big of a difference and would really only have a major impact on the short, fast stages. I think the 3GN penalty values were chosen exclusively for—and work well for—short, fast Pro Series stages where the only thing they needed to do is add some separation at the very top of the standings for competitors who are all turning in similar performances and where that small penalty can make a huge difference. For what it is worth, I think FNH has the best scoring system out there, with Andy Horner's scoring for Blue Ridge a very close second (for a match of all relatively long stages). mr50mag, I will give you one real world example of where I consider time-plus scoring to have been problematic. I shot a major match last year under 3GN rules that included three different stages with 200+ yard rifle; it also included two 3GN classifier stages. Now, you think it is just fine that an unhit target on the classifier stage and an unhit (less than 40yd) target on the long-range stages both add the same 5 seconds to your overall match score. That's your opinion and you are welcome to it. My opinion is that, with the fastest times on the classifier stages being about 7.5 seconds and (for ease of the math) the times on the long range stages being about 75 seconds, it should affect the bottom line more to give away 40% on the classifier stage than 7% on the long range stage. Otherwise, there is absolutely no reason to push it on the classifier stage to gain a fraction of a second on the field. So, yes, I absolutely believe that the value of 1 second should vary according to the stage, because not all stages are created equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 We agree to disagree and that's fine. I have had similar experiences from the other side of the spectrum all year and the most memorable was a match where somehow 8 seconds on a 17sec stage is equal to 30 seconds on a 70sec (28pts). I couldn't then and still can't wrap my head around a stage that small had such a disproportionate value with little difficulty compared to a huge stage with tons of difficulty and roughly 30 more targets meant so little. To me matches are a marathon and consistency is king. Great conversation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Their penalties were still in time and the stage points were assigned subjectively on the perceived length not based on math that could be explained. In the right direction but not quite there. Eh? Are you saying that experienced match directors can't look at a stage and guess how long it would take? Look at the results, they got it right, it isn't subjective that a stage that has you running up and down the hills will take longer that a stand and shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 If all stages are in fact not created equally then why do most MDs assign a 100pt value to them? Excluding FNH and BR3G of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Straight time is an issue. If you smoke a long stage you can pick up enough time often to allow you to or cover you if you did screw up a short stage or three. Converting to points means each stage is equal. or you can make certain types of stages equal, Long shot stages are 150, middle range are 125, short range hosers at 100. This also works as it doesn't allow you to win by only winning one stage. You might be twice as fast as the second guy on the long stage so you have 75 points, to play with, but unless you are that consistent across the board, that one stage won't likely win you the match. In a Straight Time score system if you save 100 seconds on one stage, you have that to spend on the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Their penalties were still in time and the stage points were assigned subjectively on the perceived length not based on math that could be explained. In the right direction but not quite there. Eh? Are you saying that experienced match directors can't look at a stage and guess how long it would take? Look at the results, they got it right, it isn't subjective that a stage that has you running up and down the hills will take longer that a stand and shoot. Again why those numbers? Why not 175/225/300 why not 1/2/3. How are the values derived? How does the difficulty of long range targets compare to short range clays? What's so hard about counting the targets and coming up with a stage value based on real tangible numbers? Why are the penalties in time if we're talking about points? Why is a FTE 15secs rather than 15pts? Edited September 10, 2015 by mr50mag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Pick whatever numbers you want, would you prefer 42, 100101000101, and C? As long as you pick the same numeric base with valid relative values it doesn't matter. I think you are stuck on something that doesn't make sense to the rest of us. Counting targets is also pretty dumb, because 3 paper targets at 10ft and 3 targets at 450 yards are not equal. Edited September 10, 2015 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Straight time is an issue. If you smoke a long stage you can pick up enough time often to allow you to or cover you if you did screw up a short stage or three. Converting to points means each stage is equal. or you can make certain types of stages equal, Long shot stages are 150, middle range are 125, short range hosers at 100. This also works as it doesn't allow you to win by only winning one stage. You might be twice as fast as the second guy on the long stage so you have 75 points, to play with, but unless you are that consistent across the board, that one stage won't likely win you the match. In a Straight Time score system if you save 100 seconds on one stage, you have that to spend on the rest. I've never seen a stage where only one guy smokes a stage by 100 seconds and got to phone it in the next 3. I get the rhetoric but it's a stretch. The hardest portion on any given match is LR targets. I think most can aggree. There is where the problem of one stage determining the match winner lies. I think also at the top level your competition doesn't allow you to make huge errors and still finish well and sometimes you can't climb out of that hole when you STB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Pick whatever numbers you want, would you prefer 42, 100101000101, and C? As long as you pick the same numeric base with valid relative values it doesn't matter. I think you are stuck on something that doesn't make sense to the rest of us. Counting targets is also pretty dumb, because 3 paper targets at 10ft and 3 targets at 450 yards are not equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Pick whatever numbers you want, would you prefer 42, 100101000101, and C? As long as you pick the same numeric base with valid relative values it doesn't matter. I think you are stuck on something that doesn't make sense to the rest of us. Counting targets is also pretty dumb, because 3 paper targets at 10ft and 3 targets at 450 yards are not equal. You're right about being stuck. I'm stuck on the notion that all stages aren't the same, all target difficulties aren't the same and assigning stage points based on it's got some LR so it's this and it's a short one so I think it should be this is flawed. I know it's not USPSA but at least you can show the math of why an 8rd stage is worth 40pts and an 32rd stage is 160. Yeah I know it's one gun but how would it work out if the same scoring was for USPSA? I believe if the value of a stage is based purely off nothing other than an opinion it's just subjective and I don't believe subjectivity has a place in a sport with winners and losers. Maybe we should just have judges and then JT would win them all. Next topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I give up, perhaps you should only shoot matches where the scoring is exactly what you want to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) To be fair I've been doing this for awhile and only in the last 2 years has my opinion drastically shifted. I for the longest time agreed with your and the other's views but I've seen and been at the receiving end of BS a few too many times to continue shooting those style matches. Hey at least there is a plethora of matches to attend and if you don't like the treatment there is somewhere else to play. Edited September 10, 2015 by mr50mag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 As Mr50Mag points out there are a plethora of matches, and if this one is run as a "total time match" I will be enjoying a different "pleth". To each their own. I do applaud the fact that the targets will have heads though. Just one last random thought. Why the pizza box target? If 3GN needed a P.C. target with no head the IPSC Classic target was widely available, and at least it doesn't look like a bullseye painted on a Papa Johns Box.... Oh well, guess I'll just go shoot pigs in December, which is fun, it is scored in pounds of bacon and costs less to go shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) I hate cumulative time matches. I'll avoid shooting them at all costs. Seems to me the cumulative time matches reward good performance on the slower stages. Stage points matches reward good performance on the faster stages. Id rather give up or gain 5% per stage over three faster stages then give up or gain 15% on one slower stage. Edited September 11, 2015 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishop414 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Oh well, guess I'll just go shoot pigs in December, which is fun, it is scored in pounds of bacon and costs less to go shoot Kurt, when does registration open? Is there a rib or chop division or just run what ya brung bacon scoring? Website info please. Would really like to get 1 more match in this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Same weekend as HTH... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 As Mr50Mag points out there are a plethora of matches, and if this one is run as a "total time match" I will be enjoying a different "pleth". To each their own. I do applaud the fact that the targets will have heads though. Just one last random thought. Why the pizza box target? If 3GN needed a P.C. target with no head the IPSC Classic target was widely available, and at least it doesn't look like a bullseye painted on a Papa Johns Box.... Oh well, guess I'll just go shoot pigs in December, which is fun, it is scored in pounds of bacon and costs less to go shoot Don't give up too soon. Dan only said 3GN rules. Targets and scoring will most likely be what you're used to. It would probably be better served if they didn't use 3GN rules as well. No one in the AMU has shot any matches in the Regional series and their familiarity with the rules will probably lead to a lot of confusion and complaints in the officiating which will just turn into blame towards 3GN which has no stake in the match. As to the targets. When Birchwood Casey came on as a sponsor the biggest shoot and see target they would contribute was the 18x18" base sized target. We collectively chose the most recognizable target to put on that base. Since the scoring was 1 in the center and 2 anywhere a bullseye target was a easy choice. Obviously the cardboard lower cost club target would mirror it. I say obviously but the correlation was lost on the fringe. 3GN is a brand now and paying royalties to use another competing organizations target is counter productive and a pretty weak suggestion for anyone to toss out there. That's like saying there was already a target with a head on it out there so I wonder why IDPA didn't just adopt it? Sounds lame when put in comparison. Considering the target is almost half the size I would venture to guess that all the complaints about the emphasis on accuracy or lack there of in 3 gun have never shot at this target. Try it before you knock it. It's not that easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solidgun Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 The targets are standard targets as noted on the FBMG15 site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 As Mr50Mag points out there are a plethora of matches, and if this one is run as a "total time match" I will be enjoying a different "pleth". To each their own. I do applaud the fact that the targets will have heads though. Just one last random thought. Why the pizza box target? If 3GN needed a P.C. target with no head the IPSC Classic target was widely available, and at least it doesn't look like a bullseye painted on a Papa Johns Box.... Oh well, guess I'll just go shoot pigs in December, which is fun, it is scored in pounds of bacon and costs less to go shoot Don't give up too soon. Dan only said 3GN rules. Targets and scoring will most likely be what you're used to. It would probably be better served if they didn't use 3GN rules as well. No one in the AMU has shot any matches in the Regional series and their familiarity with the rules will probably lead to a lot of confusion and complaints in the officiating which will just turn into blame towards 3GN which has no stake in the match. As to the targets. When Birchwood Casey came on as a sponsor the biggest shoot and see target they would contribute was the 18x18" base sized target. We collectively chose the most recognizable target to put on that base. Since the scoring was 1 in the center and 2 anywhere a bullseye target was a easy choice. Obviously the cardboard lower cost club target would mirror it. I say obviously but the correlation was lost on the fringe. 3GN is a brand now and paying royalties to use another competing organizations target is counter productive and a pretty weak suggestion for anyone to toss out there. That's like saying there was already a target with a head on it out there so I wonder why IDPA didn't just adopt it? Sounds lame when put in comparison. Considering the target is almost half the size I would venture to guess that all the complaints about the emphasis on accuracy or lack there of in 3 gun have never shot at this target. Try it before you knock it. It's not that easy. I don't care that it's square and has no head. I care that it's almost half the size. The most fun thing to do is shoot fast and hose. Most folks can only slow fire on their ranges. I Want a 2X size target so we can spray and pray at 20-30 yards too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnar Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 3GN rules with IPSC targets as noted here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=221243 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Thanks Rob, that really does make sense of the target, now I know. I was not knocking 3GN nor their rules, but I did poke fun at the target, but now I won't as the explanation is a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr50mag Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Thanks Rob, that really does make sense of the target, now I know. I was not knocking 3GN nor their rules, but I did poke fun at the target, but now I won't as the explanation is a good one. You're welcome Kurt. I hope it cleared up some of the misconceptions about the targets and their origins. I appreciate the civility in your response as well, it's refreshing. It definitely was a compromise with the target but we tried to do the best with what we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 To be fair I've been doing this for awhile and only in the last 2 years has my opinion drastically shifted. I for the longest time agreed with your and the other's views but I've seen and been at the receiving end of BS a few too many times to continue shooting those style matches. Hey at least there is a plethora of matches to attend and if you don't like the treatment there is somewhere else to play. Actually you are right about that. We are actually blessed with choice right now, and I think differences between rules and trying different things is a good thing. I personally believe that time plus with stage points makes most sense, but the reality is I'll shoot by any rules because at the end of the day I enjoy pulling the trigger and hanging out with people. And yeah, I reserve the right to change my mind and come around to your way of thinking later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackOAT Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Sub'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Well, I registered and paid, I got a link that allowed me to squad, I clicked, it said I am now squaded, with whom I do not know. At this point one cannot see the squads. I am patient. I have put in for a couple extra days off. I'll know soon, I am hopeful that I can actually get the time. (99% likelihood)Gas is pretty cheap (relatively speaking) so baring a major upheaval this will be a great trip. CG is about 35 Min north of the range as I remember. Got to make a reservation there soon.Looking forward to more information. Don't care if stages are posted, would like to know who is going however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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