Mulligans

[bret]

No Mulligans. Unless it's a new shooter at a level one. Who really cares? It's a level one match. If he comes back to beat you, you both know it's hollow. If he doesn't come back because his gear hiccuped and he didn't have fun, less new blood into the sport.

Top shooters getting reshoots on the grace of the officials is bogus. Stop whining and swaying officials as top shooters. I don't think it's appropriate to be a paid guy and set a bad example by being a priss, prima Donna, whiner, range lawyer, or anything other than gracious. People work extra shifts to pay to play the game.

I watched a certain three gunner from Oklahoma lose his cool on TV the other night and repeatedly say "That's a BS call." The distinguished gentleman from Louisiana has had more than his share of charity calls, doubles, and has a range JD. The younger gentleman from Louisiana is also vocally discontented when he gets a bad call. What about that pat on the back stop he got at the 2014 ProAm with time left on the clock as he was blasting away on a foot fault!?! He should have been able to shoot all the remaining shots for penalties as time allowed.

I thank them all for their examples and pledge to do my level best not to follow them.

Not allowed to coach during COF.

The R.O. was wrong, the shooter should have been left alone unless he was unsafe.

[RJH]

Bret, you can coach new shooters at a level ! if they ask/say its ok. I might not have been clear about the "new shooter" i.e. first match, mulligan I typed about earlier. I was specifically talking about them having a bad jam early in the run, and like someone else said this is more of a safety factor than anything else.

Other than this very small group of people, you are and should be on your own. I also would have no issue with a RM who said no one gets a mulligan, new or otherwise.

[bret]

Level 1 match is one thing.

Level II, and above, no coaching.

What is a ProAm?

Isn't that a level II or Level III?

When there are a classifier and scores being reported to USPSA, is that a level II match?

Edited August 24, 2015 by bret

[Forrest Halley]

RJH,

Bret was talking about my reference where Max Michel got a pat on the back stop at 2014? ProAm while blazing away with foot faults having time left on the clock and bullets in the gun. He went on to win the match.

I agree with your idea of safety first in stopping a new shooter. It beats DQ'ing them two seconds later because they didn't clear the malfunctioning gun in the 180 or somehow otherwise unsafely handled the gun. I like having new shooters come back to shoot again. Good for the club and the sport. People that are taking the level one matches super seriously usually aren't good shooters and are not my desired squadmates. I don't believe in destroying the spirit of the competition by throwing out the rules, but you can gently explain them after stage for the next time and coach the shooter to avoid breaking the rules.

[9x45]

I have been shooting with pretty much the same crew for over 15 years and at the 6 different USPSA clubs I go to, reshoots are offered all the time. Sometimes the shooters takes it, sometimes not. If someone brings a newbie, yea, we cut them lots of slack (not safety issues). Usually the rock on the prize table is a 2nd, not even round and full of chips, so nobody cares. Level II and higher, the rules is the rules.

But what you learn if you play this game long enough, this kind of thing goes on even at the Nationals. Example: RO and shooter are long time buddies, shooter has a small issue, RO thinks, yea its wrong, but he is my buddy so 2 Alphas, no procedurals. If the RO doesn't like the shooter (not buddy), then the call is Alpha, Mike, and a procedural.

[RJH]

Most level 1 matches do have a classifier and report scores to USPSA. Many level 2 matches do not have a classifier, because having 3 or more GMs in a division makes the actual match a classifier. (I am pretty sure the number is 3 GMs, don't have the rule book in front of me)

[bret]

This was a slot series match, so it is supposed to be a little more important than the other matches shoot.

What makes a level II match a level II match?

[teros135]

It's in the rule book, Appendix A1, page 55. Shows you the differences between the various types of matches.

[copecowboy22]

Most of the clubs I shoot at allow for a reshoot of the classifier after the match if you just absolutely tanked it during the match. This doesn't go for the match just goes for your classification.

[bret]

It's in the rule book, Appendix A1, page 55. Shows you the differences between the various types of matches.

Thanks looks like it was a Level I match, but according to 5.7.2 he should have not been able to reshoot for score.

[9x45]

Forrest "People that are taking the level one matches super seriously usually aren't good"

I say these people are not good for the entire sport. Reality is Level 1 matches are just practice for the Areas and Nationals. And by the way, the 6 clubs that I frequent run a classifier every other week. And one club runs 6 stages of classifiers every 6 months.

[Flatland Shooter]

Mulligans are for golfers. I don't really like golfers. They dress too "pretty" for it to be a real sport.

[Sarge]

Forrest "People that are taking the level one matches super seriously usually aren't good"

I say these people are not good for the entire sport. Reality is Level 1 matches are just practice for the Areas and Nationals. And by the way, the 6 clubs that I frequent run a classifier every other week. And one club runs 6 stages of classifiers every 6 months.

I don't get your post. People who take level I matches are not good for the sport? I say they are the ones who keep people from getting hurt by being "serious".

Level I matches are just practice for area and Nationals? I average well over 50 shooters a month and only a small number of those shoot area matches and only a small handful have shot nationals.

[Onepocket]

I don't think Mulligans are good for the sport no matter what. Level one, first time shooter it should not matter.

[Forrest Halley]

Yeah I don't understand whether 9x45 is on my side or being shot at me...pun intended?

I also find Sarge's post humorous in that in asking for clarity he doth add to the mire of the confusion.?

I don't like the people that are super rule nazis at a level one. I don't think safety should be compromised on...ever. I think people that complain about a new shooter being given leeway and then take ridiculous amounts of time to make ready for an effectively C class run are poison to the sport because they slow down the match, range lawyer at every opportunity, and irritate the volunteers. ?

If I'm there running a stage I will be fair and afford all shooters an equal shot at the stage. I will help a new shooter through the stage and ensure that they have fun while being safe. Once they catch on, then they're on their own. Don't give me a hard time about it, I just want to see people having a good time and a laugh now and then....usually when I'm shooting.

[bret]

Is expecting the rules, such as 5.7.2 by a B shooter, Chief Range Officer and the guy that runs the match, being a rule Nazi?

[Forrest Halley]

Is expecting the rules, such as 5.7.2 by a B shooter, Chief Range Officer and the guy that runs the match, being a rule Nazi?

No. Quite reasonable.

Your match....have the guys run it whatever way you like, even like a national if you so desire. If it were my match and your credentials were falling out of your pockets next to your sense of entitlement, I'd kindly ask you to find another squad. That's all. We know the rules. We follow all the rules, but we bend some nonsafety rules for new folks to keep it fun and ease them into the fold. I don't need or want to make A,M,or GM with charity or cheating. I also won't abide a posterior discomfort for several hours of my free time that I am enjoying with folks of similar mind. We aren't changing the times...just having good ones.?

Edited August 24, 2015 by Forrest Halley

[9x45]

Forrest, I am on your side. The key words are "Super Seriously" which Sarge left out. They are not always bad shooters, but they go out of their way to make things unpleasant, whine about everything, this wasn't set right, that's an illegal target, etc, kick the newbie in the head when they should cut him some slack, tend to spend allot of time in the rule book, don't help so much because they think they are above it all, everyone hear knows the type.

By the way Sarge, we get over 100 shooters every Saturday at 3 of the 6 clubs I hang out at, so I still maintain that Level One matches are practice.

[SDM]

So if I spend $50-100 and a day of my life to shoot a level 1 match it's just practice? I say HTFU and learn the rulebook. If you're new and an equipment malfunction keeps you from coming back, so be it. Learn what it takes to keep your mess running, or get a bad score, or stay home.

That said, I'm all for being welcoming to the new folks. Coaching off the clock, pointing out that we all were new once, and we all have issues is fine. But let them know that it's a competition and we run it fair. I'd argue that some will be turned off if the regulars aren't taking it serious. Might as well "practice" in the backyard.

[Onepocket]

Well said.

[Trent1k1]

New Shooters at a Level 1 match, get a little slack in my book. If the guy is unclassified or a D shooter, he isn't in the hunt for a Nationals slot. If you are the one complaining that this guy got special treatment and it may take away any chance you had at a D slot at Nationals, you need to do a ton more practicing and a lot less whining on the Interwebs.

I have never gotten a reshoot at a Level II match even though I have sorely needed 1 or 2 along the way with bad ammo and broken extractors or other gun problems.

Level 1 matches are L1. No one is winning a trophy or winning a car.

[bret]

New Shooters at a Level 1 match, get a little slack in my book. If the guy is unclassified or a D shooter, he isn't in the hunt for a Nationals slot. If you are the one complaining that this guy got special treatment and it may take away any chance you had at a D slot at Nationals, you need to do a ton more practicing and a lot less whining on the Interwebs.

I have never gotten a reshoot at a Level II match even though I have sorely needed 1 or 2 along the way with bad ammo and broken extractors or other gun problems.

Level 1 matches are L1. No one is winning a trophy or winning a car.

I thought it was a discussion about mulligans, following the rules on a reshoot, not someone taking a slot at Nationals.

I had a reshoot twice, once it was due to a suspected squib load, since it wasn't a squib I reshot a classifier, the other the clamshell stayed open and a piece of steel didn't fall after taking 4 dead center hits. These were according to the rules.

I never expect or have gotten special treatment, I am new to this and worry mostly about safety issues, learning and following the rules, then shooting the stage.

I am improving, plan to be a B class shootet in a year or two at most.

It is a fun sport, a lot of great people.

[9x45]

So if I spend $50-100 and a day of my life to shoot a level 1 match it's just practice? I say HTFU and learn the rulebook. If you're new and an equipment malfunction keeps you from coming back, so be it. Learn what it takes to keep your mess running, or get a bad score, or stay home.

That said, I'm all for being welcoming to the new folks. Coaching off the clock, pointing out that we all were new once, and we all have issues is fine. But let them know that it's a competition and we run it fair. I'd argue that some will be turned off if the regulars aren't taking it serious. Might as well "practice" in the backyard.

No, I said it was practice for me, you take away what you get from any match, or any training session. I shoot to stay proficient, and lower my blood pressure, not raise it, and hang out with my buds. What does HTFU mean?

That's why I shoot classifiers with my G31 carry gun running full house ammo and drawing from an appendix holster from concealment, there is no rule against it....

Edited August 25, 2015 by 9x45

[Ranger6]

No Mulligans at a USPSA match. Wait isn't Steel Challenge under USPSA? They have a Mulligan on each stage. Oh well.

I have heard of some "outlaw" matches that a competitor can purchase a Mulligan. They must declare which stage it will be used on. Only one can be purchased/used. Interesting concept.

Ranger6

[d_striker]

So if I spend $50-100 and a day of my life to shoot a level 1 match it's just practice? I say HTFU and learn the rulebook. If you're new and an equipment malfunction keeps you from coming back, so be it. Learn what it takes to keep your mess running, or get a bad score, or stay home.

That said, I'm all for being welcoming to the new folks. Coaching off the clock, pointing out that we all were new once, and we all have issues is fine. But let them know that it's a competition and we run it fair. I'd argue that some will be turned off if the regulars aren't taking it serious. Might as well "practice" in the backyard.

No, I said it was practice for me, you take away what you get from any match, or any training session. I shoot to stay proficient, and lower my blood pressure, not raise it, and hang out with my buds. What does HTFU mean?

That's why I shoot classifiers with my G31 carry gun running full house ammo and drawing from an appendix holster from concealment, there is no rule against it....

There is if you're swapping holsters in the middle of a match, isn't there?

Edited August 25, 2015 by d_striker