Mulligans

[Onepocket]

How many of you have witnessed this at matches. What do you think and should you say anything.

[wgj3]

It happens more often than it should at local matches, but I feel like it is more closely managed at bigger matches in general. I know there are those who feel that certain shooters are more prone to requesting/getting reshoots...

[BARRYJ]

We occasionally let people re-shoot a stage, for no score.

[LilBunniFuFu]

In what respect? At level 1 if we have extra time, sure, run it for practice sans score. At a level 2 or above, only if the is a legitimate reason for it.

[Onepocket]

Restarts. Do overs related to gun problems. I have seen it more often at steel challenge matches. I don't care for it but don't care enough to say much. Anyone seen much of this? Do or would you say anything. What's the point in keeping score if you give mulligans.

[BARRYJ]

In what respect? At level 1 if we have extra time, sure, run it for practice sans score. At a level 2 or above, only if the is a legitimate reason for it.

That's what I meant.

[LilBunniFuFu]

Restarts. Do overs related to gun problems. I have seen it more often at steel challenge matches. I don't care for it but don't care enough to say much. Anyone seen much of this? Do or would you say anything. What's the point in keeping score if you give mulligans.

At practice matches I might stop you since I want to beat my buddies for real. Arty a level one with new shooters I might stop them since I don't know what they might do with a malfunctioning gun.

But at a level 2 there is no way I'm giving you an unfair advantage because you brought nonfunctional equipment.

[Matt1]

I've seen one guy get restarted at a level 2 when he got a death jam at the beep. It was his 1st match and he had bad ammo (and other issues). It was like watching a train wreck. I think the RO felt sorry for him and let him start again.

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[bret]

Restarts. Do overs related to gun problems. I have seen it more often at steel challenge matches. I don't care for it but don't care enough to say much. Anyone seen much of this? Do or would you say anything. What's the point in keeping score if you give mulligans.

I believe once the course of fire starts and you fire a shot, if you have a problem with your gun malfunctioning, you have 2 minutes to correct it and finish the course of fire, otherwise you get the COF scored as fired.

If it is a stage malfunction, then you get a reshoot, but not because your gun malfunctioned.

Is this correct?

[teros135]

I've seen one guy get restarted at a level 2 when he got a death jam at the beep. It was his 1st match and he had bad ammo (and other issues). It was like watching a train wreck. I think the RO felt sorry for him and let him start again.

<snip> What's the point in keeping score if you give mulligans.

I believe once the course of fire starts and you fire a shot, if you have a problem with your gun malfunctioning, you have 2 minutes to correct it and finish the course of fire, otherwise you get the COF scored as fired.

If it is a stage malfunction, then you get a reshoot, but not because your gun malfunctioned.

Is this correct?

It's all in the rule book. 5.7.6 says there is no reshoot when the handgun has failed after the Start signal. 5.7.1 says that if the malfunction occurs after Make Ready and prior to the Start signal, the shooter "is entitled to retire to repair his handgun without penalty" and can run later.

It's unfair to everyone (especially at a LII) if someone gets a reshoot because of their own equipment failing. It's unfortunate if it happens, but everyone gets to have the same "shot" at the stage. Maybe okay at LI (local), but what if it's a classifier, or it's a highly competitive shooter who gets an "extra" try?

[Sarge]

Restarts. Do overs related to gun problems. I have seen it more often at steel challenge matches. I don't care for it but don't care enough to say much. Anyone seen much of this? Do or would you say anything. What's the point in keeping score if you give mulligans.

I believe once the course of fire starts and you fire a shot, if you have a problem with your gun malfunctioning, you have 2 minutes to correct it and finish the course of fire, otherwise you get the COF scored as fired.

If it is a stage malfunction, then you get a reshoot, but not because your gun malfunctioned.

Is this correct?

Unfortunately no. Once the beep happens you are SOL whether you got a round off or not. I'm not 100% sure but I thought I read the rule changed some time ago and perhaps it used to say after a shot occurred?

[bret]

Restarts. Do overs related to gun problems. I have seen it more often at steel challenge matches. I don't care for it but don't care enough to say much. Anyone seen much of this? Do or would you say anything. What's the point in keeping score if you give mulligans.

I believe once the course of fire starts and you fire a shot, if you have a problem with your gun malfunctioning, you have 2 minutes to correct it and finish the course of fire, otherwise you get the COF scored as fired.

If it is a stage malfunction, then you get a reshoot, but not because your gun malfunctioned.

Is this correct?

Unfortunately no. Once the beep happens you are SOL whether you got a round off or not. I'm not 100% sure but I thought I read the rule changed some time ago and perhaps it used to say after a shot occurred?

Jerry Miculek had a firing pin break, he was given a reshoot, because they said he didn't fire a shot.

That is why I thought if you didn't fire a shot you got a reshoot.

[bret]

How many of you have witnessed this at matches. What do you think and should you say anything.

It happened yesterday, I didn't think much about it at the time, he had something happen with his gun after he got off a couple of shots, he couldn't correct it, I think he had a problem with 2 of his magazines, not really sure.

They pasted up his targets and he reshot the stage after they ran some other shooters.

We had a girl lose her front sight, she finished without it.

[RJH]

When and where did the Jerry Miculek reshoot happen? Was it at a 3 gun match, or USPSA?

I am basically against mulligans, although I have restarted a brand new shooter when they have had major gun issues after 1 or 2 shots. Never at a level 2 match and never if they have shot a match or two.

[bret]

When and where did the Jerry Miculek reshoot happen? Was it at a 3 gun match, or USPSA?

I am basically against mulligans, although I have restarted a brand new shooter when they have had major gun issues after 1 or 2 shots. Never at a level 2 match and never if they have shot a match or two.

It was on YouTube, he was started, pulled the trigger, gun wouldn't fire, he cleared his gun, went to a safe area and checked his gun.

He was given a reshoot, he didn't ask for one, the RM or MD made the call.

I don't think he added for or was expecting special treatment, he wanted to be treated as any other shooter would have been treated.

Do a Google search you will find it.

It was a major match. Not sure which one.

[RJH]

Thanks Bret, I checked, looks like it was an ICORE match, so different rules.

[bret]

Thanks Bret, I checked, looks like it was an ICORE match, so different rules.

OK I wasn't sure, but listening to the R.O's initially it would have been a Zero stage, they called the RM to make the call.

[RJH]

I did a little more checking, and it looks like the reshoot shouldn't have been granted after all. Apparently there was a shooter a few years before that had the same thing happen, got a reshoot, then was arbitrated, got the original score, and lost the match because of it.

This is why IMO, mulligans are generally a bad idea. They seem to never be applied evenly, and the people who are not going to change the outcome of a match by having one (brand new shooter), won't get one, and a top/experienced shooter who should know better will receive one on name alone.

I firmly believe that NO shooter at a level 2 or higher should be granted a reshoot unless specifically granted in the rulebook.

[Matt1]

I agree. The shooter I saw shouldn't have gotten one. Several other squad members were like WTF at the time but ended up just giving the RO's shit about it for the rest of the day. The guy was doing so badly that nothing was going to save him. A mulligan rule would be nice. Later that match I zeroed a stage after an ejected case was re-chambered backwards in a short course. Cost me a grade win and a regrade to Master.

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[teros135]

And that's why Mulligans are a bad idea.

Why should the "bad" shooter get one and the "good" shooter not? The Mulligan "helped" the poor shooter's score but the lack of one hurt the better shooter. Not fair, I say.

Who wouldn't want one too, when the gun doesn't work or we have a head separation or (yikes!) somebody put the ammo in backwards?

Edited August 24, 2015 by teros135

[bret]

And that's why Mulligans are a bad idea.

Why should the "bad" shooter get one and the "good" shooter not? The Mulligan "helped" the poor shooter's score but the lack of one hurt the better shooter. Not fair, I say.

Who wouldn't want one too, when the gun doesn't work or we have a head separation or (yikes!) somebody put the ammo in backwards?

From what I have seen, the new guy or not the top shooter, they don't get these kinds of breaks.

The top shooters, the R.O.'s and their buddies get the breaks.

One guy at the club I shoot at will not listen to the stage briefing, get procedural's, then cry about it and get a pass on it.

Guy is irritating and always crying when things don't go his way.

I got 2 procedurals on a foot fault, I didn't cry, I didn't even realize I did it.

[teros135]

I've seen Mulligans, "gimmes", and all sorts of rules flexibility at LI ("local") USPSA matches. It can given to anyone, at the timer-holder's choice. Some of them are even certified ROs.

All this is usually done by well-meaning folks, but it's basically the easier way to do things, keeps everyone happy, and is supported by local match administration. The rules are supposed to ensure safety and fairness, but it's confusing to see them executed in so many different ways.

[d_striker]

Just as in golf, mulligans are cheating. I don't care what level match it is.

[Forrest Halley]

No Mulligans. Unless it's a new shooter at a level one. Who really cares? It's a level one match. If he comes back to beat you, you both know it's hollow. If he doesn't come back because his gear hiccuped and he didn't have fun, less new blood into the sport.

Top shooters getting reshoots on the grace of the officials is bogus. Stop whining and swaying officials as top shooters. I don't think it's appropriate to be a paid guy and set a bad example by being a priss, prima Donna, whiner, range lawyer, or anything other than gracious. People work extra shifts to pay to play the game.

I watched a certain three gunner from Oklahoma lose his cool on TV the other night and repeatedly say "That's a BS call." The distinguished gentleman from Louisiana has had more than his share of charity calls, doubles, and has a range JD. The younger gentleman from Louisiana is also vocally discontented when he gets a bad call. What about that pat on the back stop he got at the 2014 ProAm with time left on the clock as he was blasting away on a foot fault!?! He should have been able to shoot all the remaining shots for penalties as time allowed.

I thank them all for their examples and pledge to do my level best not to follow them.

[Nimitz]

yeah, that kind of "variety" at L1 matches is not doing anything to help our sport grow. Unfortunately, at L1s not everyone understands what a competition really means ....or worse, they are trying to help out their friends .....