kurtm Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 The spinner is just such a target. we made the spinner, then folks found out that heavier bullets and shot charges worked better on it which got taken to the ludicrous. what with Prairie Storm shot shells 3" magnum turkey loads etc. Now many matches have a new rule on what ammunition can be shot at this target, and yet you can still use this same ammunition on far steel etc. We now have "target specific" rules. Now this isn't just limited to shotgun, I know lots of folks who make sure they have the hottest, heaviest ammo they can run for both pistol and rifle. so now instead of just getting a bunch of ammo ready for a match we now need to take a bunch of specialty ammo just to be competitive, because of a single target design. Now I know this target has many supporter, who say it is great because it needs heavier loads. Wouldn't we have been better served by a ballistic pendulum that has to be moved so far? Then there are those who say it is great because it teaches patience and timing (I'm not sure how that relates to action shooting, but ok), but wouldn't we have been better served by having a set time you have to shoot the shots at say every two seconds and the one closest to breaking the shot right at the time gets the most points? The spinner isn't the only target system like this either, just so you don't think that this is a rant on the spinner. Disappearing targets also are a target that required "a special rule". since you can't shoot it at rest, there is no penalty for not hitting it.??? How about steel plates that can spin, New rules for those as well When coming up with new target designs I think we should be asking ourselves is this a good target for any and all applications and will react the same for every shooter or will it generate another page or two of rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 AUTHOR! AUTHOR! ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Yeah, I am of the same thinking. When designing a shotgun match with it's vast variety of target types, we end up with considerably more issues to accompany the fun. I like to keep things simple and fun. I kind of like the spinners becuase they are challenging and because they are disruptive to reload plans, forcing shooters to think on their feet (perfect for our match). Unfortunately our first year saw limited use of Prairie Storm and we had a bent up target, very sore shoulders and probably a few guns that will have a reduced service life. Limiting the power factor for the entire match seemed the best solution, to keep things simple and fun for the competitors (no need for specialty ammo), improve safety and reduce wear and tear on equipment. So I am learning first hand about odd targets forcing us to rethink rules. Unfortunately, if I took all of the advice from every complaining competitor, we would have nothing but non spinning knock down steel, static clays and paper slug targets to work with. Not nearly as much fun as what we are able to put together for stages with all of the other cool stuff out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I think the other issue is that some of these targets are not exactly cheap and not usually available to the average joe to practice on. Sure, if your club has one and you shoot it 20 times maybe you learn the "trick" and it becomes a trivial target but the shooter who never sees one has to learn it on the clock. I'm not sure that it actually tests a skill as opposed to target availability. I think however that it is brilliant for target makers to gift these to major matches and then everyone at home needs to buy one to be competitive. That's just good marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 So where is tbe comprehensive list of what targets are agailable to everyone? Does everyone have access to knock down steel? How about stars? Or clamshells, max traps and swingers? Does every one have poppers? I hear what you're puttin down, but when I go to a major match, I want to do something I don't get to do at home. So longas everyone faces the same challenges fairly, I welcome something new and different, because in the end, the real problem to solve is how you keep your head while shooting some new and interesting target or shooting from some new and unusually awkward position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Some targets are shall we say, Common, others are no more than a common target with a different presentation, ie, the star. It is 5 8" plates, OK, they move, but unless they are set at a ridiculous distance, an average shooter will be able to shoot it, especially since most of us will give free advice. On the other hand, there are targets that are simply not 'Common', the spinner is one. So is the double star with swinging No-Shoots and the like. They are great sidematch/Carnival targets, but don't belong in a major match. You also should have adequate spares and back-ups, so if your super-zoomy-newest new-fangled target array, hot off the welding table target cost you $2500, you should a ought to have bought two, or at the very least have a set of spare parts and a competent repairman on site.Nothing like having your target bite the dust half way through a match and having to toss a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Some targets are shall we say, Common, others are no more than a common target with a different presentation, ie, the star. It is 5 8" plates, OK, they move, but unless they are set at a ridiculous distance, an average shooter will be able to shoot it, especially since most of us will give free advice. On the other hand, there are targets that are simply not 'Common', the spinner is one. So is the double star with swinging No-Shoots and the like. They are great sidematch/Carnival targets, but don't belong in a major match. You also should have adequate spares and back-ups, so if your super-zoomy-newest new-fangled target array, hot off the welding table target cost you $2500, you should a ought to have bought two, or at the very least have a set of spare parts and a competent repairman on site. Nothing like having your target bite the dust half way through a match and having to toss a stage. Agreed. You know it was funny. At the Shotgun Challenge this year, we put a spinner, a popper and a clay kicker into a practice bay for the competitors to practice on in their spare time. They completely filled a 55gal drum with empty hulls practicing on those 3 targets. I know of several guys who burn an entire flat of shells each, practicing on the spinner. They were so delighted to have access to targets, they don't have at home, and for long enough to get in some meaningful practice. I think the practice berm might have been everyone's favorite stage(?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 The target that has done the most harm to our sport lately is not the spinner or the "proppeller" plate rack, or any of the carnival steel targets to come around, it is the pizza box, and every other paper rifle target that is from 0-20 yards from the muzzle. How much close paper do we need in each match? With the neutering of the rifle/carbine into a short ranged paper puncher the rifleman portion of our game seems to be getting less and less important. Couple that with the near universal adoption of stage points to further reduce the value of what seems to be only one or two stages in each match that have longer ranged targets. I am not asking for tiny targets at silly distances, just more of what most competitors would consider reasonable, 3 or 4 MOA out to 400, and not just 2 or three targets per match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 it is the pizza box, and every other paper rifle target that is from 0-20 yards from the muzzle. But it looks good on TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 The target that has done the most harm to our sport lately is not the spinner or the "proppeller" plate rack, or any of the carnival steel targets to come around, it is the pizza box, and every other paper rifle target that is from 0-20 yards from the muzzle. How much close paper do we need in each match? With the neutering of the rifle/carbine into a short ranged paper puncher the rifleman portion of our game seems to be getting less and less important. Couple that with the near universal adoption of stage points to further reduce the value of what seems to be only one or two stages in each match that have longer ranged targets. I am not asking for tiny targets at silly distances, just more of what most competitors would consider reasonable, 3 or 4 MOA out to 400, and not just 2 or three targets per match. I dunno, it is certainly possible this is the case with some matches, but the matches I've shot this year were certainly long range heavy, or at least involved enough shooting past 100 yards that it made or broke your match. And this is on the east coast. The big issue here is range availability. I don't want to think any match director wouldn't use the space if they had it, but not everyone has it. I'd say any rifle time is better then no rifle time, and if your range only has bays and maybe a 100 yard range, you do the best you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 If you don't have the range, then you don't have it and you make do with what you have. It has just been my opinion as of late that at the matches I have been lucky enough to attend seem to be de-enpasizing the longer range aspect of our sport. The trend just seems to be more heading towards the short range high speed low drag sort of stages that admittedly many people like. I can place poorly at any sort of match, but selfishly I like matches with more rifle challenges as they tend to balance out my pistol inferiority. Even when I can pull together a blistering pistol hoser stage (that is a joke, the only thing blistering about my pistol is if I leave it in the sun too long), I just find it far more satisfying to burn through the long range rifle targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 And now, for the good stuff.... The Clayoreo is a good example of a well thought out short range frangible rifle target that is guaranteed to bring a rifle hoser stage some precision respect (or at least slow it down some....LIKE A SPINNER??? ) It was designed to be superior to any single clay bird wrt rifle ammo (and .223's proclivity to burn a single hole through a single clay, making it very hard for limited shooters to see). Used every year of the Noveske Colorado Multigun championship with no issues.... I would rather face a berm full of Clayoreo's than a silly spinner.....at least you feel like you're accomplishing something.... mi dos centavos ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) IMHO, the spinner should stay at practice days and club matches. At best, it's a test of skills that aren't even close to the rest of the stuff we do in 3-Gun. At worst (without ammo restrictions), it's just a "who showed up with the fanciest shells today" contest. Edited August 26, 2015 by dcloudy777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Maybe there should be more spinners for rifles...give a big incentive for the HM shooters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) I can see it both ways. Putting long range slug targets in a shotgun stage forces the shooter to manage ammo and load the correct shell for the correct target and we all consider that ok. Changing chokes from one stage to another is also ok. Given that one of the major advantages of a shotgun is it's ease in being reconfigured depending on the shots required it should come as no suprise that people will use different shells depending on what you ask them to do. From that point of view is there even a problem? If competitors matching shells to shots required is really a problem that needs to be solved, then you have one of two solutions. The first is a more complex rules set that mandates engagements for each type of target, or one rule that covers everything. Either require the competitor to use the same ammo for the entire match or putting in a max velocity rule. There is that one other solution though, match directors can stop setting up shots that can't be made by an 18" barrel, cylinder bore shotgun using an ounce of #8's at around 1150fps. Edited August 26, 2015 by T Bacus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Targets are either fun....or they aren't. Competition aside...we all want to have fun. I don't care about the excuse that something is expensive and someone may not have it on their range......if you shoot a $3000 custom 2011 and complain about buying a $600-700 target that can be good for training, you should have bought a $500 pistol and two of those targets with a bunch of ammo. If you have to create a special ruleset around a certain target because you are concerned about damage...your club cannot afford to use that target, or you are putting it too close. I HAVE a spinner and have shot it with everything but rifle, I've shot it OVER and OVER with 2oz #6 flight control MagShok turkey loads through various chokes to see what worked and from what distance. I only need 2-3 rounds in the side pocket of my range bag in case that target pops up. If the match doesn't allow it, I'm gonna use the heaviest 7.5's I can find. If you want to put an ammo restriction on the entire match due to ammo concerns....I'm fine with that. 3000+ fps rifle rounds have done more damage to my steel than XM855, so lets start there....500S&W may be a bad pistol power factor level for steel 10 yards away too, and maybe 1300fps would be a max for birdshot (my 2oz #6's are under 1200fps btw......wait, maybe it's total mass.....no .308 and no 230gr .45!). I think we are worrying about something that doesn't need to be worried about when it comes to the rules and ammo........INSTEAD...maybe let's focus on if a target is consistent, repeatable, and fair. Spinners are not the most consistent IMO....the legs can dig into the dirt/mud and the axle moves forward/backward. The wind, grease, rain,....all need to be the same in order for it to be repeatable. I've shot spinners with my pistol where it's tipping over and the wind brings it back with a gust....now maybe mother nature hated me for saying global warming was crap, but ONE guy getting hosed by a small gust of wind because the target was moving isn't fair or repeatable. I like my spinner and love shooting it.....but I don't think it's the best target for major matches....it's also one target that I've hammered in matches and it's given me a sizeable time advantage because I knew the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logiztix Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 The spinner is one of those targets that gets a lot of whining at our local club matches. We always set it up so that it *can* be done with an 18" barrel, cylinder bore using #7.5 @ 1200 FPS. That's the cheapest bulk pack ammo out there (at our range's maximum shot size) with the cheapest pump configuration to run. We will still get shooters that can't rotate it with everything on their belt. We have sometimes used their same gun to test calibration, always getting it in 3 shots. We use the spinner as a way to turn a single target into 3 or more shots for the average shooter. Our club is light on steel and other props, so it works out fine. Some of the carnival targets on the other hand, I agree don't always render fair judgement in a match where there is fame and fortune on the line. I've too often seen one shooter or another have the pin stay in the Propeller Plate Rack 2 minutes into a stage and not have to re-shoot because of the reset hassle. Even the double Texas Star is one where luck seems to have much more of a role than it should. I bought a spinner after the first time it bit me, vowing never to send more than 3 shots at one again. A $1600 Propeller Plate Rack will just continue to be a roll of the dice for me, as I've only faced it twice and both times were in a major match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I don't care about the excuse that something is expensive and someone may not have it on their range......if you shoot a $3000 custom 2011 and complain about buying a $600-700 target that can be good for training, you should have bought a $500 pistol and two of those targets with a bunch of ammo. Sorry but that is nonsense. What if I shoot a $400 plastic gun instead of that 2011? Lets say I by this target for training, how is it any better then any other steel except for training explicitly for it being in a match somewhere? What about the next trick target? Do I buy that one too? At what point do I build a bigger garage to hold my expensive collection of steel plates? Let me ask you this .. what skills does this target actually test that can't be tested in any other way, convince that we should have it in matches, not that I should go buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Read the entire post......I don't think it's a good target for major matches. Should you go out and buy one right away? No. Is it a fun target to shoot and requires skill? Sure. Is cost...in 3-Gun...an excuse. No. It has nothing to do with a certain target or not, but this is an expensive sport to be in....entry level or not. Even a $400 pistol is accompanied with $100 in mags, a $700-1200 rifle with $100 in mags, $300 optic on the low end unless you're shooting true irons, and a minimum of a $400 shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 The target that has done the most harm to our sport lately is not the spinner or the "proppeller" plate rack, or any of the carnival steel targets to come around, it is the pizza box, and every other paper rifle target that is from 0-20 yards from the muzzle. How much close paper do we need in each match? With the neutering of the rifle/carbine into a short ranged paper puncher the rifleman portion of our game seems to be getting less and less important. Couple that with the near universal adoption of stage points to further reduce the value of what seems to be only one or two stages in each match that have longer ranged targets. I am not asking for tiny targets at silly distances, just more of what most competitors would consider reasonable, 3 or 4 MOA out to 400, and not just 2 or three targets per match. Sounds like you need to shoot the MO3GC (Missouri 3 Gun Championship) match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Read the entire post......I don't think it's a good target for major matches. Should you go out and buy one right away? No. Is it a fun target to shoot and requires skill? Sure. Is cost...in 3-Gun...an excuse. No. It has nothing to do with a certain target or not, but this is an expensive sport to be in....entry level or not. Even a $400 pistol is accompanied with $100 in mags, a $700-1200 rifle with $100 in mags, $300 optic on the low end unless you're shooting true irons, and a minimum of a $400 shotgun. $100 in mags? That's only like, 3 mags. Yeah, you can run a match like that, but you'd have to be a mag-loading fool. Edited September 9, 2015 by Langenator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Started, Building 5 rifle rated spinners today. 1 for our range , 4 for guys who like paracticing the 'carnival shooting' One thing they do that no other target does , is patience and timing. Patience, if you wait for ever for it to present again, Timing, so you don't stop it , when just one more shot could have had it spinning like a propeller Patience & Timing, if you want to risk shooting another target or two in between. Edited September 9, 2015 by toothandnail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Started, Building 5 rifle rated spinners today. 1 for our range , 4 for guys who like paracticing the 'carnival shooting' One thing they do that no other target does , is patience and timing. Patience, if you wait for ever for it to present again, Timing, so you don't stop it , when just one more shot could have had it spinning like a propeller Patience & Timing, if you want to risk shooting another target or two in between. It does indeed reward patience and timing.... But isn't our entire game geared toward hitting targets as fast as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Bring back the large targets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Bring back the large targets! Just how large and why? To dumb down the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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