DA/SA Production gun at Half Cock holstered with safety off = DQ?

[bikerburgess]

With this ruling since lowering the hammer to half cock in Production = a bump to Open that therefore means holstering a gun at half cock doesn't = a DQ, because the rule would then say it's a DQ and not a bump to Open. And to me this also means you can start at half cock in Limited/L10 because any ready condition allowed in Open is also allowed in Limited/L10.

I think the rule really should say if you start a course of fire after manually lowering to half cock then it's a bump to Open. If you're manually lowering the hammer and accidentally let go of the trigger too early so the hammer stops at half cock I'm not going to bump you to Open while you're re-cocking and re-lowering the hammer as you try to fix this error. If someone's shooting Production and holsters a gun at a manually lowered half cock I'd warn them that if they start the course of fire like that it's a bump to Open; I'm not going to be a jerk and just start them and after they shoot say welcome to Open.

What makes this different than forgetting to rack a round into the chamber or not seating a mag at Make Ready, I was instructed to not coach shooters kosher than new shooters at a L1)

[Southpaw]

With this ruling since lowering the hammer to half cock in Production = a bump to Open that therefore means holstering a gun at half cock doesn't = a DQ, because the rule would then say it's a DQ and not a bump to Open. And to me this also means you can start at half cock in Limited/L10 because any ready condition allowed in Open is also allowed in Limited/L10.

I think the rule really should say if you start a course of fire after manually lowering to half cock then it's a bump to Open. If you're manually lowering the hammer and accidentally let go of the trigger too early so the hammer stops at half cock I'm not going to bump you to Open while you're re-cocking and re-lowering the hammer as you try to fix this error. If someone's shooting Production and holsters a gun at a manually lowered half cock I'd warn them that if they start the course of fire like that it's a bump to Open; I'm not going to be a jerk and just start them and after they shoot say welcome to Open.

What makes this different than forgetting to rack a round into the chamber or not seating a mag at Make Ready, I was instructed to not coach shooters kosher than new shooters at a L1)

Because this is a new ruling that most people aren't aware of and there's obviously a lot of confusion around it based on this thread. I highly doubt the general membership of USPSA frequently checks the USPSA site for new rulings; heck the vast majority don't even know the most basic rules such as proper range commands...

I'll bet there are people out there who manually lower to half cock thinking that's in compliance with the rules, now that the rules have been clarified it seems like the nice thing to do to warn people of this before starting them on a stage instead of just bumping them to Open saying "too bad, you should have checked the USPSA site daily for new rulings".

[Nimitz]

so is it a bump to open as soon as you holster the gun or after you start the CoF ....

Sorry, but I still don't see where this is a DQ by rule ....

[Nik Habicht]

so is it a bump to open as soon as you holster the gun or after you start the CoF ....

Sorry, but I still don't see where this is a DQ by rule ....

Once again here are the rules:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

All these conditions apply the entire time the handgun is in the holster. See 8.1.2.4

and....

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB (e.g.: table start, in a drawer, etc). in order to be in compliance with 10.5.11

In the absence of guidance to the contrary from NROI, my call will be to issue a match DQ if you holster a single action or selective action firearm with the hammer back and the primary safety not applied. If you disagree you're welcome to call things differently at your matches, or to file an arbitration if affected by my decision.

[Nimitz]

so the recent information provided by Troy is not considered guidance or is sufficient in clarifying the issue? Not trying to argue, just trying to understand why there is a 129 post thread about this topic if the rules are clear?

[Nik Habicht]

so the recent information provided by Troy is not considered guidance or is sufficient in clarifying the issue? Not trying to argue, just trying to understand why there is a 129 post thread about this topic if the rules are clear?

The recent NROI ruling does not address holstering a single action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied. My recollection from multiple classes is that hammer state for these guns is binary, and if the hammer isn't down, then the safety needs to be applied before holstering.....

The recent NROI ruling merely focuses on division non compliance -- it doesn't address the safety rules at all.....

[d_striker]

so the recent information provided by Troy is not considered guidance or is sufficient in clarifying the issue? Not trying to argue, just trying to understand why there is a 129 post thread about this topic if the rules are clear?

The recent NROI ruling does not address holstering a single action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied. My recollection from multiple classes is that hammer state for these guns is binary, and if the hammer isn't down, then the safety needs to be applied before holstering.....

The recent NROI ruling merely focuses on division non compliance -- it doesn't address the safety rules at all.....

Holstering a SA/DA gun with the hammer fully cocked w/o safety applied is already clearly covered in the rulebook. This needs no clarification.

What I'm hearing is that you are choosing to consider half cock as being fully cocked regardless of what NROI says.

After shooting a L2 match over the weekend where I witnessed one very questionable rule interpretation by the RM, I'm getting upset about RM's interpreting the rules to their own whim. It really makes me question the individual's logic and/or integrity.

Edited September 14, 2015 by d_striker

[Nik Habicht]

What exactly has NROI said? The clarification they issued clarifies the text in Appendix D4, item 19. As such it only applies to production division.

10.5.11.1 and 10.5.11.2 don't differentiate between fully and half cocked -- so my plain text reading of those rules is that cocked/not cocked is a binary condition. My interpretation of that condition is that if the hammer is back -- at either half cock or full cock -- then the safety must be applied before holstering.

This reading of the rules is supported by the language in section 8.1. According to 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” [guns need to be either]– chamber loaded with hammer fully down,

or

chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged. So, if the chamber is loaded, and the hammer is cocked, i.e. not fully down, then the safety needs to be applied.

Worst case scenario here is that someone's match ends early -- that's bad.

Worst case under your reading that it's ok if the hammer is at halfcock, is that a gun goes off at an inappropriate time, and a competitor is injured. That's worse......

I have no desire to send anyone home from a match early. That is trumped though by the need to protect everyone in attendance at the match.

If NROI clarifies the meaning of 10.5.11 and Section 8.1 to suggest that it's not a DQ to holster a gun at half-cock, I'll cheerfully comply with interpretation. I'm on the fence though as to the likelihood of us seeing that ruling.

[d_striker]

What has NROI said?

Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

Seems pretty clear that it's not a DQ.

If you are worried about someone getting hurt from drawing a CZ at half cock, you should be even more concerned about people drawing striker fired guns with trigger jobs on every stage.

Edited September 14, 2015 by d_striker

[Nik Habicht]

What has NROI said?

Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

Seems pretty clear that it's not a DQ.

If you are worried about someone getting hurt from drawing a CZ at half cock, you should be even more concerned about people drawing striker fired guns with trigger jobs on every stage.

That ruling addresses competitive equity -- know how I know that? Because it specifically states that it applies to Appendix D item 19......

Know how I know that it has no bearing on disqualifying someone for holstering a blaster in that manner? The ruling doesn't state that it applies to 10.5.11......

But hey, if you're only going to quote some the info in a ruling, maybe you only partially read it, and did';t consider where it fits into the rules.....

Created:

5/20/15

Updated:

9/10/15

Effective:

9/17/15

Rule Number:

Appendix D4, #19

Applies to:

Pistol

Ruling Authority:

DNROI

Status:

Released

Question:

Answer:

Language to be added to D4 #19: "Yes - see Special Conditions. Only Double Action, Double Action/Single Action, and Safe Action guns are allowed, and must be on the approved list. When in the ready conditions as specified under 8.1, the gun must be hammer down. A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer, (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present. Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

Notice that it says nothing about invalidating anything under 10.5.......

[bikerburgess]

Also note that the ruling does not mention the position of the safety, only the position of the hammer. It is quite likely that the DNROI assumed that a safety was being applied.

[Nimitz]

hmmmm ... let me ask a different question which may be part of the issue & could lead to a clarification for everyone ......

can someone explain why a gun that has a decocker, which apparently only lowers the hammer to somewhere other than fully decocked, is 'safe' while manually decocking a gun (which does not have a decocker) to the half cock position is not safe?

I'm not talking about what the rules say since it appears that using a decocker to lower the hammer is different than doing it manually by our rules but rather, specifically what makes these 2 methods different WRT safety?

I'm also going to assume that guns with decockers work differently on different guns or do they all work mechanically the same in what they do?

[bikerburgess]

As far as I know all the decocking guns that do not lower the hammer all the way also include some sort of firing pin blocking mechanism, the same can not be said of all da guns in general (think CZ shadow) so on a shadow with a factory hammer spring there MAY be enough energy in the hammer from the half cock position to set off a primer if it fell from that position. Is it likely to fall, probably not but neither is a single action gun from full cock but we don't say that is ok either.

Edited September 14, 2015 by bikerburgess

[motosapiens]

With this ruling since lowering the hammer to half cock in Production = a bump to Open that therefore means holstering a gun at half cock doesn't = a DQ, because the rule would then say it's a DQ and not a bump to Open. And to me this also means you can start at half cock in Limited/L10 because any ready condition allowed in Open is also allowed in Limited/L10.

I think the rule really should say if you start a course of fire after manually lowering to half cock then it's a bump to Open. If you're manually lowering the hammer and accidentally let go of the trigger too early so the hammer stops at half cock I'm not going to bump you to Open while you're re-cocking and re-lowering the hammer as you try to fix this error. If someone's shooting Production and holsters a gun at a manually lowered half cock I'd warn them that if they start the course of fire like that it's a bump to Open; I'm not going to be a jerk and just start them and after they shoot say welcome to Open.

What makes this different than forgetting to rack a round into the chamber or not seating a mag at Make Ready, I was instructed to not coach shooters kosher than new shooters at a L1)

That's a reasonable point. I have always considered the hammer start condition more like one's hand position, where you just don't start the shooter until they are in the correct position, but I think your interpretation is probably more consistent with the rules.

On the dq topic, I am flabbergasted that people still think something that moves you to open is actually a dq. I don't see how it can be both.

[bikerburgess]

It can be both because the ruling makes no reference to the safety being applied or not, if it is applied then the bump to open is in order due to non division compliance. If the safety is off there has been no ruling stating that is ok

[jester121]

The recent NROI ruling merely focuses on division non compliance -- it doesn't address the safety rules at all.....

I'm trying to understand -- you really think Troy's guidance below was to move them to Open just for an instant before you DQ them, assuming they make it into their holster?

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=61

Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

Pretty sure if DNROI it to be a DQ offense, he'd have specified that instead of an Open bump.

[bikerburgess]

The recent NROI ruling merely focuses on division non compliance -- it doesn't address the safety rules at all.....

I'm trying to understand -- you really think Troy's guidance below was to move them to Open just for an instant before you DQ them, assuming they make it into their holster?

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=61

Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

Pretty sure if DNROI it to be a DQ offense, he'd have specified that instead of an Open bump.

Maybe I'm slow, can you show me where in his ruling the DNROI mentioned the safety being on or off?

[Nik Habicht]

With this ruling since lowering the hammer to half cock in Production = a bump to Open that therefore means holstering a gun at half cock doesn't = a DQ, because the rule would then say it's a DQ and not a bump to Open. And to me this also means you can start at half cock in Limited/L10 because any ready condition allowed in Open is also allowed in Limited/L10.

I think the rule really should say if you start a course of fire after manually lowering to half cock then it's a bump to Open. If you're manually lowering the hammer and accidentally let go of the trigger too early so the hammer stops at half cock I'm not going to bump you to Open while you're re-cocking and re-lowering the hammer as you try to fix this error. If someone's shooting Production and holsters a gun at a manually lowered half cock I'd warn them that if they start the course of fire like that it's a bump to Open; I'm not going to be a jerk and just start them and after they shoot say welcome to Open.

What makes this different than forgetting to rack a round into the chamber or not seating a mag at Make Ready, I was instructed to not coach shooters kosher than new shooters at a L1)

That's a reasonable point. I have always considered the hammer start condition more like one's hand position, where you just don't start the shooter until they are in the correct position, but I think your interpretation is probably more consistent with the rules.

On the dq topic, I am flabbergasted that people still think something that moves you to open is actually a dq. I don't see how it can be both.

Here's the difference:

Competitive Equity -- i.e. move to open. Shooter loads SA or Selective Action gun, lowers hammer to half-cock, applies safety and holsters the gun. That's a competitive equity problem and under Appendix D4 and Rule 6.2.5.1 the correct penalty is a move to open. There's no issue with the requirements in Section 8.1.2, nor is there a violation of 10.5.11

Safety issue, i.e. match DQ: Shooter loads SA or Selective Action gun, lowers hammer to half-cock, does not apply safety and holsters the gun. That's a violation of our sport's safety rules -- and a match DQ is unfortunately called for under 10.5.11

This is why it's important to reference which section of the rulebook or which rule a clarification applies to......

[Nik Habicht]

The recent NROI ruling merely focuses on division non compliance -- it doesn't address the safety rules at all.....

I'm trying to understand -- you really think Troy's guidance below was to move them to Open just for an instant before you DQ them, assuming they make it into their holster?

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=61

Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

Pretty sure if DNROI it to be a DQ offense, he'd have specified that instead of an Open bump.

I think it's apples and oranges. Go to half-cock with safety applied before you holster -- no safety issue, though you'll be playing in a different division......

Don't apply the safety, and it's match over. The safety position is the difference between the two scenarios.....

[Nimitz]

ok, I buy all that as long as the definition of cocked = half cocked ...

[bikerburgess]

Well partially cocked is absolutely not the same as hammer fully down (or the limited exception of in the position the decocking lever puts it) I would say the key word is cocked. Everyone keeps arguing that half cocked is something other than cocked to a lesser extent than the system is capable of. Yes some manufacturers have designed systems that lower a hammer to that position and in conjunction with other safety devices they have engineered it to be a safe condition to carry the weapon, and our rules allow for this. The facts are that not all DA guns are engineered to be safely carried in this condition and our rules reflect that, we do not ask that ROs need to know the internal workings of all DA guns on the market all they need to know is if there's a decocking lever it must be used if not then the hammer must be all the way down.

[ac4wordplay]

Well partially cocked is absolutely not the same as hammer fully down (or the limited exception of in the position the decocking lever puts it) I would say the key word is cocked. Everyone keeps arguing that half cocked is something other than cocked to a lesser extent than the system is capable of. Yes some manufacturers have designed systems that lower a hammer to that position and in conjunction with other safety devices they have engineered it to be a safe condition to carry the weapon, and our rules allow for this. The facts are that not all DA guns are engineered to be safely carried in this condition and our rules reflect that, we do not ask that ROs need to know the internal workings of all DA guns on the market all they need to know is if there's a decocking lever it must be used if not then the hammer must be all the way down.

Well said.

[motosapiens]

Competitive Equity -- i.e. move to open. Shooter loads SA or Selective Action gun, lowers hammer to half-cock, applies safety and holsters the gun. That's a competitive equity problem and under Appendix D4 and Rule 6.2.5.1 the correct penalty is a move to open. There's no issue with the requirements in Section 8.1.2, nor is there a violation of 10.5.11

>>It's not a competitive equity problem unless the shooter starts the stage that way. Just like having hands in the wrong start position.

Safety issue, i.e. match DQ: Shooter loads SA or Selective Action gun, lowers hammer to half-cock, does not apply safety and holsters the gun. That's a violation of our sport's safety rules -- and a match DQ is unfortunately called for under 10.5.11

>>As concerning a selective action gun, that only appears to be your opinion. I still see nothing from DNROI that supports that opinion.

see bolded comments above.

I appreciate your contributions, but I still think you are using pretty strained logic to argue a DQ, and I still think anything that's a DQ should be pretty clear, not a gray area where a variety of smart and experienced people have thought about the topic at length and still come to opposite conclusions.

Edited September 15, 2015 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

Well partially cocked is absolutely not the same as hammer fully down (or the limited exception of in the position the decocking lever puts it) I would say the key word is cocked. Everyone keeps arguing that half cocked is something other than cocked to a lesser extent than the system is capable of. Yes some manufacturers have designed systems that lower a hammer to that position and in conjunction with other safety devices they have engineered it to be a safe condition to carry the weapon, and our rules allow for this. The facts are that not all DA guns are engineered to be safely carried in this condition and our rules reflect that, we do not ask that ROs need to know the internal workings of all DA guns on the market all they need to know is if there's a decocking lever it must be used if not then the hammer must be all the way down.

Note that if you are shooting anything other than production, you can remove and discard all the firing-pin-blocks, so I don't think their presence on some sa/da guns really supports your argument.

[bikerburgess]

Well partially cocked is absolutely not the same as hammer fully down (or the limited exception of in the position the decocking lever puts it) I would say the key word is cocked. Everyone keeps arguing that half cocked is something other than cocked to a lesser extent than the system is capable of. Yes some manufacturers have designed systems that lower a hammer to that position and in conjunction with other safety devices they have engineered it to be a safe condition to carry the weapon, and our rules allow for this. The facts are that not all DA guns are engineered to be safely carried in this condition and our rules reflect that, we do not ask that ROs need to know the internal workings of all DA guns on the market all they need to know is if there's a decocking lever it must be used if not then the hammer must be all the way down.

Note that if you are shooting anything other than production, you can remove and discard all the firing-pin-blocks, so I don't think their presence on some sa/da guns really supports your argument.

I think it actually goes to the heart of the argument. The argument I keep seeing is CZs with decockers put the hammer on the half cock notch therefore all guns are safe at half cock, as you pointed out that is not necessary true.