First time reloader, likely stupid questions, help please

[RDA]

Not real tickled to death with your powder choice. After looking at your crono work it looks like the closer you get to minor power factor the worse your spread gets. Also, in the brass you showed I saw 3 pieces of glocked brass. I do have brass guages to check my brass but I prefer use the barrel out of my gun. Once after I size the brass then again after I compleat the reloading cycle. If it don't fit after sizing it goes in the round file. If it don't fit after it's loaded, it gets pulled. Hell, I'm not good enough to make it near the top of the match now. I certanly don't want my reloads kicking me down the ladder of sucess.

This is 9mm, none of those were "glocked brass".

[Southpaw]

So I've been doing some more reloading and came up with more questions . I have used my reloads in a few matches so far and they've worked great.

1. After crimping there's always some brass flakes/dust on the bullets right above the case that's not there after seating. Is this normal? Happens regardless of how much I'm crimping.

2. I was doing some reloading with mixed brass that had some crimped primers mixed in (WCC). It doesn't seem to be any harder to decap the crimped primers and as long as I have the brass aligned just right on the shell holder I can seat primers fine. Any reason not to use the crimped brass without swaging? I'm guessing swaging is really needed more on a progressive press where you are moving faster and not making sure the brass is perfectly aligned before seating the primer?

3. I was trying a few more loads (haven't chronoed these yet) and am getting some primer cratering (see 1st pic below) even though these loads are under VV's max load and I've also seen others post similar loads that they say works well with even more powder than these loads (all else being equal). Why am I getting this primer cratering and should I be concerned/not use these loads again?

The brass on the left is 3.55gr of VV N320 with a 147gr FMJ loaded to 1.135" and the brass on the right is 4.0gr of VV N320 with a 124gr plated also loaded to 1.135".

4. See 2nd pic below, what's up with the bullets bulging the brass? All these loads chamber check fine. It's happening more with the FMJ than the coated bullets. Happens the most with Winchester brass, which is what's in this pic, only brass that doesn't bulge at all is Federal. I tried adjusting the bell and that didn't do anything. Am I doing something wrong? Or is this fine as long as they chamber check and shoot fine?

Thanks!

[Steve RA]

You want the finished round to look like that. "wasp waisted" is a popular term for it. Basically it shows that the brass was sized down enough that when the bullet is seated you have excellent neck tension and the bullet will not be forced back into the case when being loaded into the chamber. Neck tension is what holds the bullet in place in the case, crimp is only to remove the bell from the case mouth ( except in revolver cartridges).

[firewood]

Russell

I really don't have any sage advice for you but wanted to say that the issues you are having are the same I had when I started this adventure in handloading. ie: 9mm Glock with Lee 4 pc die sets. All of my problems came down to crimp and using a much shorter COAL. I ended up trying other dies (RCBS for example) but in the end I'm basically using a seating die to only seat and the FCD to only remove the bell. 9mm as you have been informed is not strictly straight walled, it has a taper and isn't the easiest to learn on. I don't want to give you my powder weight or coal because I'm not home and not exactly sure but it's something like 3.8g WST, xtreme plated 147g RN @ coal 1.128 in a Glock 17. Using range brass I get 1 or 2 per 100 rounds that don't pass the plunk test or fit my case gage.

The instructions that come with the LEE dies are not very clear. The instructions in the Richard Lee book are also not the best but I think are better than the instruction sheet that comes with the dies. I loaded up a bunch of dummy rounds and removed and reset my dies about 5 times before I finally got it.

So what lesson did I get from my experience? Acknowledge that there are many opinions on the various die makers and especially the fcd, I have moved to buying dies that I want forgetting the cost. I don't own a Dillon press but the concept Dillon uses makes sense to me. So I use a dedicated seating only die and a dedicated taper crimp die. Get one die to do exactly what you want before you set up the next die. All of this takes time and can be frustrating but in the end will result in trouble free ammo. If you don't have a powder scale yet please get one.

I have been loading 38 spl target loads for about a year now. Using a 147 plated RN, I can get good results with 3.3g titegroup. But I wanted to experiment with different powders and tried VV N320 which everyone raves about. So I loaded up a bunch starting at 3.2g going up to 4.0g. The best grouping is at 3.8g (my gun is a S&W 686 with a 4" barrel). However I get some un-burnt powder in the case and more soot in the cylinder (compared to titegroup) and really have no logical explanation for it. Granted I haven't done enough poking around to determine the cause yet. Just saying this as a way of making the point that what works for me may not work for you. We want results as our first priority so as long as our ammo is safe and is accurate that is the main thing.

Take what I say with a grain of salt as I've been doing this for only 2 years and you are getting input from guys that have decades of experience. Right now I'm putting the finishing touches on a new bench to load on. In the past I mounted my press on a 33" high bench. Solid is was but since installing the press on an Ultramount (not an endorsement) the raising of the press 10" has really made a big difference especially seating the primers. Some might think how could that make any difference and they might be right but if results are the measure of success then mounting the press to fit me and not for the sake of cost or convenience will help you make better ammo. Good lighting is a big thing and placing the powder scale at eye level is also a help. On my old bench it got to the point that it was such a PITA to work the press and my back was aching after 25 rounds that I wanted to give up handloading and buy factory. There are so many things to consider when setting up your workspace and getting your particular loads dialed in that if we knew this ahead of time I doubt many of us would ever consider handloading in the first place.

But after all the pain and itching is cured, the end result is worth it. Example, I have a Taurus PT140 mil pro in 40 S&W that shoots like crap with factory ammo. But I spent a lot of time and have a handload that really makes this gun work. So hang in there.

[Sarge]

1. Back off your crimp die just a smudge and the shavings will go away or be greatly reduced. Put only one round that needs crimped in the crump station. There should be virtually no resistance at all. If you can really feel the crimping orocess you are too far down.

2. My guess is if you are not having issues priming WCC brass that's because it's already been reloaded. I don't care what kind of press you use primers just won't go in there smoothly if they go at all. Of course the old primer comes out with no problem. The crimp won't prevent that at all but it will prevent priming.

4. You want the slight bulge. Remember, 9mm is a tapered case so the longer the bullet the more pronounced the bulge. Same with using a smaller die such as LEE OR EGW Udie. The reason the federal doesn't bulge is because the case walls are thinner than most so there is less material to displace. Federal is some of the only brass I ever had setback with. A Udie fixed the problem

Edited August 27, 2015 by Sarge

[mikeinctown]

A page back the question asked was why do people dislike the Lee FCD. Just my $.02

I bought a Dillon .45 die set and loaded a bunch using the Dillon crimp die. (not really a crimp, just make it straight.) A few rounds here and there seemed a bit snug in the barrel so I got the FCD. The FCD seems to resize the entire case in the crimp station even though my Dillon die in station #1 does the same thing. The FCD just seems to have a slight tighter tolerance. Handle pull is harder with the FCD in there and I use One Shot lube on the cases. The FCD also sizes the cases almost down to the shellplate where the Dillon has more of a rounded edge to the die, so it sizes just a touch higher on the case.

Eventually I am going to buy a shockbottle gauge but until then I just use my barrel for every round. The FCD produces rounds that almost seem loose in the barrel while the Dillon seems to produce rounds that slide in nicely but do not get stuck. I may just go back to the Dillon crimp die for ease of handle pull on the press once I get the hundo gauge and determine if the Dillon die gets me near 100% passing rounds.

[Ray_Z]

1. Back off your crimp die just a smudge and the shavings will go away or be greatly reduced. Put only one round that needs crimped in the crump station. There should be virtually no resistance at all. If you can really feel the crimping orocess you are too far down.

2. My guess is if you are not having issues priming WCC brass that's because it's already been reloaded. I don't care what kind of press you use primers just won't go in there smoothly if they go at all. Of course the old primer comes out with no problem. The crimp won't prevent that at all but it will prevent priming.

4. You want the slight bulge. Remember, 9mm is a tapered case so the longer the bullet the more pronounced the bulge. Same with using a smaller die such as LEE OR EGW Udie. The reason the federal doesn't bulge is because the case walls are thinner than most so there is less material to displace. Federal is some of the only brass I ever had setback with. A Udie fixed the problem

Yea, what Sarge said. I don't like the ring I see around the top of the cases. It looks like the taper crimp die is taking a bit of material off the mouth of these cases. That would tell me that that die is adjusted a bit too low. I'd adjust it up a bit not only to stop the brass shaving but it also must be over crimping the case. Remember, this is one of the cases that headspace on the mouth of the case. after making an adjustment run your fingers from base to top of the cartradge. If you feel a bell, you went too far. If you still have a problem with shaving brass try the case a rch more before seating your bullet.

[Ray_Z]

Oh, BTW, I wanted to comment on the title to your thread. The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask.

[TDA]

As far as crimping goes, pull a bullet and see if there is a mark on it from the crimp. There should be no mark.

[Southpaw]

Thanks all for the replies!

Any thoughts on that primer cratering? Looks like a sign of over pressure, right? But those loads are lighter than I've seen others say they use so not sure why that's happening. And those are CCI primers, not even Federal.

That's very good to hear the bulging is normal. I guess I didn't realize since my first few batches were with Federal brass. I was testing some rounds last week and saw significant set back after 1 chambering, I think around .01-.02, that might have been Federal brass. I tested some of these above and had no set back. So how does factory ammo have sufficient neck tension without bulges like this?

Are the brass shaving a bad sign, or just an annoyance? I did clean all the rounds so I wouldn't get it all built up in my chamber. Back a page or 2 I had that issue with too little crimp causing failures to feed. I didn't think this was too heavy a crimp, I pulled a round with no mark on the bullet. But I will play with the crimp some more. Right now there's very little residence when crimping, the handle almost falls completely down just from gravity on most brass.

It's quite possible that WCC brass was already reloaded, it was range pickup brass. But the crimp looked intact, didn't look swaged, so that means someone else managed to reload it for the first time without swaging?

[mikeinctown]

I load coated Blue Bullets. When I pull a bullet I want to see a line, but I don't want any of the coating to get pulled off or shaved off. This is the way I was told somewhere in these forums where I asked a half dozen times last year when I started. If you load plated or jacketed then I suspect maybe a very light line where the case meets the bullet but nothing more. Others will have a lot more info than I do.

[TDA]

The "cratering" seems to depend on the breech face. M&P and Glock always always leave an imprint on the primer, as does my Beretta. My Sig's and my 1911 do not though.

Yours look like a Beretta breech face imprint.

[Ray_Z]

Are the brass shaving a bad sign, or just an annoyance?

They are a sign that your dies need adjustment. I don't think anything is going to explode. You may have a problem with FTF or deformed bullets causing a problem with accuracy.

About the apperence of the primers

9mm is a military cartridge. With few exceptions [45acp being one of them] they are hi pressure loades. Nothing to worry about unless it goes to an extreem like flatened out primers, or punchured primers, or primers that leave the pocket.

[Southpaw]

Thanks!

I'll pull one of those rounds tonight and see if there's any mark on the coated bullets. Last time I checked there wasn't so seem like I wouldn't be able to get that very slight mark on the bullet while also preventing that ring on the top edge of the cases.

Yeah I guess I'm maybe worrying too much about slight pressure signs when there are plenty of people running 9mm major. I was just surprised by the cratering on what I think isn't a very hot load, those should only be about 130 pf I think.

Those were shot through my STI Trojan, not a Beretta. I'm not getting that cratering with 3.25 gr with the coated bullets. I know I need to bump up the load to maintain pf when using FMJs and unfortunately 3.55 gr is the next available setting on the Auto Disk.

[firewood]

Thanks!

I'll pull one of those rounds tonight and see if there's any mark on the coated bullets. Last time I checked there wasn't so seem like I wouldn't be able to get that very slight mark on the bullet while also preventing that ring on the top edge of the cases.

Yeah I guess I'm maybe worrying too much about slight pressure signs when there are plenty of people running 9mm major. I was just surprised by the cratering on what I think isn't a very hot load, those should only be about 130 pf I think.

Those were shot through my STI Trojan, not a Beretta. I'm not getting that cratering with 3.25 gr with the coated bullets. I know I need to bump up the load to maintain pf when using FMJs and unfortunately 3.55 gr is the next available setting on the Auto Disk.

I don't have a Lee auto disk powder measure but I have read where people buy extra disks and enlarge the holes to make custom cavities depending on the actual powder and amount they want to drop. Try checking for youtube vids maybe you can find out more.

I use both the RCBS Unifllow and the Hornady LnL powder measures. They both are similar but the Hornady is easier on the wallet. If you ever decide to go that route do your homework as there are a number of options that are cost items but they have the ability to adjust to many different powders and varable weights. Again a good powder scale is your friend.

[Southpaw]

Thanks, yeah I might need to try that with the auto disks. I have found it annoying not being able to select the exact powder drop I'd like. Seems like with every load I try I'd like a little more or less powder than the closest disk will drop. And I do have a good scale, wouldn't reload without one.

I pulled one of those coated bullets from the above pic and there wasn't any crimp ring on the bullet. I'll try a slightly lighter crimp on the next batch I load. Will try decreasing it slowly and see how far I can go before I start getting feed issues like I had previously on some rounds with too light a crimp.

[mpom]

I didn't read all the responses but will say, I had purchased a large amount of range brass that had obviously been shot at major, glocked, etc..

Loading with the dillon dies, these had about 4% failure on case gauge.

I switched to an EGW U-die. The die sizes the brass .001 smaller and more importantly it sizes very close to full length.

After switching to this die I have had *zero* case gauge failures loading 147 and 160 bayous, 147 extremes, 124 extremes, etc...

http://www.egwguns.com/index.php?p=product&id=838

I am told the RCBS die provides the same sizing effect, but the EGW is the one I have direct experience with. highly recommended....

Have been using the RCBS carbide in 9mm for years, lately have had maybe 1 in 20 rounds loaded with 147gr coated bullets fail to chamber in EGW case gauge. Die is touching shell plate, Dillon 550.

Have ordered an EGW U die, so doubt that the RCBS has the same effect. FWIW, after running those rounds through a Lee FCD, they fall in and out of the case gauge, but have read enough warnings about diminished accuracy with the FCD, will not use it. Had one laying around and just tried it as a test.

[Steve RA]

IMO the problem with the FCD is that with "soft" bullets it will size the bullet down along with the case, case springs back somewhat but the bullet doesn't. This can lead to the bullet being seated deeper into the case when being loaded into the chamber and also not fitting the rifling as well, leading to poor accuracy. With jacketed bullets it doesn't do as badly as they don't size down as easily as the lead, plated or coated ones do.