Is IPDA anti-.40cal/10mm

[Crusher]

Concerning the guy that won with the sig, isn't that sig now illegal in IDPA because of the weight?

Ummmmm.... Nope in its "Factory configuration" the sig is a tad over-weight (less than .75 of an ounce) some new grips and it was good to go and still is.

BTW CDP and ESP maximum weights have been in place since the the beginning and have remained un-changed

[jkelly]

I like IDPA, but the obvious conflict between the stated (page one of the rule book) Purpose and Principles, and the Divisions of Competition is dishonest. Period.---srf

Sorry, That dog just doesn't hunt.---Mayonaise

How do you figure?---DT

I guess he could mean appaerent conflicts such as:

(From page 1 last paragraph) "The firearms are grouped into five (5) divisions..." ..."3)Stock service Pistol(9mm(9x19) or larger caliber double action, double action only, or safe action semi-automatics)".

And then IDPA puts 39+ oz DAs into ESP.

He could mean that by IDPA moving DA guns to ESP it conflicts with Principle #3.

"III Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooter, such that guns with similar characteristics are grouped together and people with similar skills compete against each other."

Or perhaps me means by allowing 40 S&W, 45ACP, and 45 GAP to shoot 125PF loads in both SSP and ESP that it conflicts with the very first sentence of IDPA's "Purpose".

Sometimes it's not the dog that won't hunt.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[itento]

Ding, Ding, Ding!! Black Hills, Zero, Winchester, Remington, etc, are you listening. A 125 + pf load in .40 S&W marketed as "the ultimate defensive/tactical load - more controllable, faster second shot, less structure penetration in close quarters, less costly and easier on your weapon. Might also result in less litigation because it would show trial juries that you (your department) was concerned about "overkill" and serious delibiting injuries caused by "high performance" ammunition.

[itento]

Oh, by the way, went to the range today to chrono some .40 S&W loads and the 3.5 gr Titegroup loads are MORE accurate than the 4.6 loads.

[Duane Thomas]

I guess he could mean appaerent conflicts such as:

(From page 1 last paragraph) "The firearms are grouped into five (5) divisions..." ..."3)Stock service Pistol(9mm(9x19) or larger caliber double action, double action only, or safe action semi-automatics)".

And then IDPA puts 39+ oz DAs into ESP.

He could mean that by IDPA moving DA guns to ESP it conflicts with Principle #3.

"III Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooter, such that guns with similar characteristics are grouped together and people with similar skills compete against each other."

Or perhaps me means by allowing 40 S&W, 45ACP, and 45 GAP to shoot 125PF loads in both SSP and ESP that it conflicts with the very first sentence of IDPA's "Purpose".

Sometimes it's not the dog that won't hunt.

Or all that could just mean that IDPA HQ has moved to stave off an equipment race by outlawing guns in SSP that were specifically intended to give shooters a competitive advantage by piling huge amounts of weight on previously existent but lightweight guns. Actually, that's what it does mean.

[srf]

Nothing like a spirited debate!

Look, everybody knows where everybody stands. But there is a question that I've yet to see answered:

Why are single action 40s&w's (and the 10's) excluded from CDP division if they make the power factor and comply with all other division rules?

If there was an explanation besides "just because" that made sense to the MEMBERS, IDPA wouldn't have spent the the winter of 2005 stomping out fires caused by the new rules.

I've not met one competitor who that felt CDP would be hurt, in any way, if 40's (and 10's) were allowed in CDP as long as the pistol met ALL other CDP division rules.

Respectfully.

[Mayonaise]

Why are single action 40s&w's (and the 10's) excluded from CDP division if they make the power factor and comply with all other division rules?

Respectfully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the answer is because those who created the game wanted a division for .45 ACP only after pulling 10mm out. Don't know. Don't care. Don't think it's gonna change so I don't worry about it. I just go to matches, shoot, SO and scratch my head and wonder why most of this stuff in only discussed on the internet.

[Glock2234]

Nothing like a spirited debate!

Look, everybody knows where everybody stands. But there is a question that I've yet to see answered:

Why are single action 40s&w's (and the 10's) excluded from CDP division if they make the power factor and comply with all other division rules?

If there was an explanation besides "just because" that made sense to the MEMBERS, IDPA wouldn't have spent the the winter of 2005 stomping out fires caused by the new rules.

I've not met one competitor who that felt CDP would be hurt, in any way, if 40's (and 10's) were allowed in CDP as long as the pistol met ALL other CDP division rules.

Respectfully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably to avoid the argument over how many rounds to load.

7+1?

8+1?

10+1?

14+1?

15+1?

Now that the double stack .45s are moving to ESP, the low capacity .45s can have CDP to themselves.

[jkelly]

Or all that could just mean that IDPA HQ has moved to stave off an equipment race by outlawing guns in SSP that were specifically intended to give shooters a competitive advantage by piling huge amounts of weight on previously existent but lightweight guns. Actually, that's what it does mean.---DT

I'll take your admission of IDPA's actions above, as being in agreement with srf's statement:

I like IDPA, but the obvious conflict between the stated (page one of the rule book) Purpose and Principles, and the Divisions of Competition is dishonest. Period.

Which is the point I was making.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Crusher]

Now that the double stack .45s are moving to ESP

Is this true? Can the .45 be shot in ESP?

Really BIG holes, a lighter .45 cal bullet (185 grn) moving arond 750-800 fps could be the ESP gun of the future if this is the case.

I have an old STI eagle (actually the 5.1 version) collecting dust and it may be FUN to cook some ammo for minor, template and weigh the gun and change out the bull barrel to a bushed version.

[dirtypool40]

136power factor close enough? - Ted

That is cool, I had no idea Corbon made anything less than barrel buster loads. Ok, you got me there......wait a minute, what's the name of this stuff? Perormance Match? Hmmm, seems like gamer ammo to me. I want some.

I guess if I had a factory "ride" I could afford to shoot factory Corbon, and would be happy to. Of course if my department was paying me to shoot full power carry loads at IDPA I'd do that to.

For now, as always with almost ANY shooting sport, I guess the serious folks will handload. In this case that means download. Fair enough.

I can't shoot major (or RW carry pf loads) but the capacity disadvantage is nulled out by the ten round rule. I guess, two wrongs make a right .

[COF]

Or all that could just mean that IDPA HQ has moved to stave off an equipment race by outlawing guns in SSP that were specifically intended to give shooters a competitive advantage by piling huge amounts of weight on previously existent but lightweight guns. Actually, that's what it does mean.

I can buy that on the SIG's and Beretta's but what about the LDA?

Jerry

[Ted Murphy]

Hmmm, seems like gamer ammo to me.  I want some.

It's pretty good stuff FWIW. The reintroduced their "tactical" 140 grain .38 special and renamed it "performance match". It's a 140grain at like 1100 fps. Mighty cool stuff.

But you are right about having to reload.

Ted

[dirtypool40]

and load their own ammo too.

I wasn't set up to load (moving and had everything broken down) so I asked abuddy to load me some gamer 135 pf loads for my sexy .40 skinny gun for the 03 FL IDPA state match.

I chamber checked them, but still ended up with 14 malfuctions for the match. Seems his primer seater was out of adjustment and I had scads of high primers.

I think I still finished 1st in my Div in spite of it. By the end of the match I was REALLY good at a quick slide rack to get back in action.

[Duane Thomas]

Now that the double stack .45s are moving to ESP, the low capacity .45s can have CDP to themselves.

But the "capacity" of a .45 in CDP was always the same - 8 rounds - whether single- or doublestack.

[Ted Murphy]

I suspect what the fella was saying is that you can now use a widebody .45 in ESP and load to 10.

Ted

[Glock2234]

I suspect what the fella was saying is that you can now use a widebody .45 in ESP and load to 10.

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Ted.

I thought it was pretty obvious. Guess not obvious enough.

[Duane Thomas]

Ah. Got it. You were saying that now the heavy, wide-body .45s can't compete in CDP due to the weight limit. I thought you were saying that there was a difference in capacity of guns - single vs. doublestack - in CDP. My mistake.

[Ted Murphy]

I'm not sure the weight limit is an issue. Most those widebodies have been used in CDP before and are legal. Just that guys with hi cap .45's that always wanted to stuff a few more rounds in their gun now has that option if they choose.

Ted

[Brent Chambers]

IDPA does have a bias against the 10mm and .40 S&W and if you talk to the right person on their board (or formerly) they'll be pretty honest about it.

When IDPA first came to Michigan in the late '90's I gave it a try with the gun I was using for USPSA- a custom single stack 10mm. I shot the first IDPA match in the state with that gun and had a pretty good time shooting in CDP against other friends using both the .45 ACP and the 10mm.

I kept at both sports for a while- using a single stack 10mm in IDPA and eventually an SV 10mm with 140mm tubes, blah blah blah for IPSC Limited (as you can see, I like the 10mm).

Then IDPA switched to the CDP being .45 ACP only- and like many folks who shot 10mm's in this division we were scratching our head's thinking "WTF?"

Only when I got a chance to talk to Rob Leatham at the Single Stack Classic a few years ago did the full bias against the 10mm by some of the IDPA Powers That Be become as legitimate as many of us had theorized. I was lucky enough to be placed in his squad and he held a captive audience as he shared, very politely, his thoughts on what had happened and he certainly seemed to be in a position to know.

Anyway, I continued to shoot IDPA with a 10mm but in ESP for while, until I got tired of shooting against 10 round guns. Someone is sure to chime in and tell me that if I was really good shooting a 9 round 10mm against a 10 round 9x19 wouldn't matter and they're probably right. But, it did matter to me and I eventually gave it up and had a 9x19 built for IDPA.

That doesn't mean I don't continue to question IDPA on the stupidity of killing the 10mm as a competitive cartridge in IDPA.

Just my thoughts-

Brent

[waktasz]

I always thought a 9+1 gun was an advantage in IDPA. Silly me.

[Brent Chambers]

9 + 1 is the way to go. I just got back from our Sunday night league using the previously mentioned 9x19 1911- 9 round Colt mags + 1.

Most 10mm mags. were 8 round when I was into that caliber in IDPA- the Wilson 10mm mags were 9 but they weren't on the market long, so most 10mm (and .40) single stack shooters tended to have 8 + 1 for IDPA, which put them in line with the .45 ACP that they should still be shooting against.

Brent

[Ted Murphy]

9+1 isn't always the way to go. There is the odd 11 shot stage out there.

Ted

[Glock2234]

9+1 isn't always the way to go.    There is the odd 11 shot stage out there.

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my experience, only if you shot the Virginia match last year.

[Tangram]

IDPA does have a bias against the 10mm and .40 S&W and if you talk to the right person on their board (or formerly) they'll be pretty honest about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What board are you writing about?

Rick