Dead Buff Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 I shoot a Para P16-40 with nearly no mods, except for the sights and a 2-piece full length guide rod with red Shok Buff. I have put in a new extractor about 3000 rounds ago (again Para...I live in Nam, couldn't get anything else... ) since the old one stopped reliably extracting cases. Now something new has popped up. I get FTF. I used to get this when loading my ammo at 29.5mm (1.16in). This disappeared since I now load 30.5mm (1.20in) and had no FTF's in over 5000 rounds. Now it popped up again. And I'm frustrated like hell. Because of 2 FTF's at the SA Champs 2 weeks ago I dropped a couple of places. If I shoot bad its me, if the gun jams I wanna destroy it! Here is what happens: The round enters the chamber, but then hangs up against the top in the chamber (the nose of the bullet does not drop down). If I have time (not during a match) if I pull back the slide just a fraction the round pops into the chamber and under the extractor.... What can the problem be? My load is mixed .40S&W brass, Frontier (South Africa) 180gr RNFP CMJ bullets seated and crimped at 30.5mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Dude in my para i ran the rounds at 31.5mm polished ramp and extractor. Just make sure your chamber can handle that length, the new paras cannot and need to be reamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Buff, I always check the easiest and cheapest thing first. The bullet is probably entering "nose up" because it is "rim down" under the new extractor. Check the extractor tension. All that is needed is about 4 lbs of tension. That is just enough to hold a loaded round against the breech face. Take the slide off the gun and remove the barrel to test this. Attempt to slide a round up from the bottom into the extractor hook. If you have to press it in there, the tension is probably too great. I can't recall if the Para has a gvt. style extractor. If it does, you just back the extractor about 3/4 of the way out the back of the slide, and press it outward from the slide, very carefully with finger pressure. It won't take much! Then, it is also very helpful to use a small file to relieve the extractor of any edge that might exist inside the lower part of the claw or hook. Give the inside of the hook a good polishing, like Zorba recommended. But don't weaken it with excessive metal removal. Since you have recently changed this part, it is most likely the source of the new problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted March 8, 2005 Author Share Posted March 8, 2005 Will definitely "work" on the extractor and get some new mag springs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 While you're at it, look at the sidewall of the breechface away from the extractor. If you find a lot of brassing, toolmarks there may be creating enough friction to stall the rim sliding up the breechface. In the old days that was one of the first things we'd check, as Colt was apparently very cheap with the broach that made that cut. They probably sharpened it only on holidays, and nver replaced it. That sidewall was sometimes rough as a cob, and a couple of magazines would have it so wadded with shorn off brass that you coulnd't get a case up there with a ball peen hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Extractor tuning FAQ's http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5222 Brazos has some articles on his site, including http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/ejection%20perfection.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 I shoot a Para P16-40 (again Para...I live in Nam, couldn't get anything else... ) since the old one stopped reliably extracting cases. DB, I have been using Para stuff for quite a while. The extractor has been the only gun part that has been troublesome. I have a P-16 that the original extractor went soft and so did the replacement. It seems that Para had a bad bunch of steel for a while. This may not be an option for you, but I put in an Aftec and never looked back! Do what the guys suggest and clean, profile and polish everything. Ed Brown makes a pretty good part. I am sure there are others also. If you have problems getting parts in "Nam", you may want to look at this website: StrictlyIPSC Select "misc" and look at "re-tempering springs". I tried it. It works! DVC, Chuck PS: What caught my eye is your "I live in Nam". That used to mean somewhere very different about 30+ years ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standles Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Great thread... My Para is stock and have had this problem since day one. It has gotten a little better but nothing near what I would call realiable. This happenes with 3 different factory loads, one of which was RN profile. Looks like I need to follw some of the advice here. I just hate to spend 60.00 shipping for a extractor replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Mine jammed like this too the first day I had it out, but I hand polished the feed ramp and chamber a bit with 1500 grit sandpaper and then flitz and a rag and it has run 2000+ rounds since then with no jams of any kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 .40's are finicky, and often difficult to tune to 100% reliability. Everything that has anything do with feeding must be fit and polished perfectly, especially the extractor. Nevertheless, if your pistol has a buff in it, removing it will often override another problem and at least let 'er work again. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 My 1640 will stop feeding reliably if the extractor tension exceeds 20 ounces (as measured with a Weigand gauge and trigger pull gauge). Take the slide off, insert the Weigand gauge and pull straight down. Over 20 ounces, mine starts getting FTF's. For the record, I think Para ramps (at least mine) are too vertical and the barrel position too high with respect to the mag. Mine would never feed reliably until I re-worked the ramp on the stock barrel. maybe an aftermarket barrel is cut right, my stock barrel wasn't. I had to cut the ramp angle down a little and lower the "entry area" on the ramp to pick up the nose... and live with the loss of "support area" at the rear of the case this required. My gun feeds 100% now. Also, the "nose against the roof" feed hang you are describing can sometimes be improved by mirror polishing the inside upper throat surface and (if necessary) rounding over the top of the ramp where it enters the throat. I had to do bopth to get my gun to feed right. One more thing: the stock para extractor is a cast piece and mine was not properly radiused at the lower edge to allow the round to "roll up and under". Check the extractor... and then test your skill at launching into the nearest waste basket and replace it with a good one. FYI, the shok-buff never caused a problem in mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Benos beat me to it. Try it without the Buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted March 9, 2005 Author Share Posted March 9, 2005 PS: What caught my eye is your "I live in Nam". That used to mean somewhere very different about 30+ years ago! I can see where that could cause confusion.... --------- I checked the extractor and its bottom is perfectly square, so a little rounding will be in order. I have also got hold of a Caspian extractor...will be here tomorrow... The breach face of the gun is a mirror (if I clean it ) and I polished the feeding ramp and chamber. I also ordered Wolff mag springs with Arradondo followers - also here tomorrow...all just in time for this weekends nationals.... I will try without the buff as well. It has been in there forever, but it might be the cause.... Tnx for all the advise...will let know after the weekend what happend.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Good luck! All you can hope for is 100% relaibility! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standles Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 I took mine apart last night. A round does slide under the extractor but is tight Ie.. the cartridge does not "hang down" any it is flush to the breech face. The extractor might could be cleaned up some (smoothed). I also hand inserted a round into the bbl by riding the nose up the ramp and into the chamber. It hangs at the same pleace and angle I get in live fire. Looking i nthe chamber I can see concentric rings (ridges) and assume this is from the reaming operation. I am going to call para and see if they want to fix it or send me a new extractor and bbl.. Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eye Cutter Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 DB: remember the post about my para in the ipsc global thread? since i changed to the brazos tuned extractor, i've not had a ftf in my para. the extractor is an achilles heel in a para ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Looking i nthe chamber I can see concentric rings (ridges) and assume this is from the reaming operation. I am going to call para and see if they want to fix it or send me a new extractor and bbl..Later All the Para bbls I've seen have the rough rotary milling lines you see and that is why I recommended mirror polishing the top of the throat. The nose will drag on those lines. Mr wedge will probably send you a new extractor but it will look just like the one you have. The new one he sent me also was not "finished" at the bottom where it has to be "radiused out" to allow feeding. No way Para will send you a barrel. Those have to be fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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