arc of recoil

[Sac Law Man]

While taking a Matt Brukett class last Oct, Matt pointed out that I was stopping the gun after I fired, not allowing it to recoil and return naturally. ( I was shooting groups while I was doing this). I believe I do this in order to SEE where the bullet impacts the target. He told me to just concentrate on the target, allow the gun to recoil and fire when I have an acceptable sight picture. Don't worry about the holes. I have also read in Mike Plaxco's book that many good shooters stop the gun in recoil.

I can only assume if I do this during slow fire, I also do it during a course of fire. Obviously, if this happens, it disturbs the natural arc of recoil and makes it more difficult for the eyes to track the sights, forcing them to find the sights, as opposed to picking the sights up where they just were.

Anyone have experience with this, and whats the best thing to do to break out of the habit?

[Loves2Shoot]

I've seen it quite a few times. It generally happens with stronger guys that "think" that they can "stop" the recoil. Relax your strong hand and you can't really stop the gun, keep the left wrist locked out and the gun will return naturally. Most of all RELAX and become an observer, the sights should tell you where the bullet went. I hope that makes sense.

[GRD]

It helped me alot to change my mental focus to the sights almost completely. Keep the gun on target mentally and not really physically. Just stay on the sight picture with your mind and as the gun goes off, stay with the sight picture (even though it's not there) and it'll come back.

Just staying down, focused and on the sight/sight picture (whatever that may be for a given shot) before, during, after, between the shot, all the time, removed my 'concern' for what the gun was doing during recoil.

- Gabe

[Paladin]

..establish the proper intention of getting the gun back on target, some put it as x shots, x+1 sight picture, and the body will take care of the rest..

[MstngLX50]

I got out of the habit of trying to force the pistol back down by shooting with my eyes closed and letting the pistol recoil and come back naturally. I focused on how that felt and tried to replicate it with my eyes open. The speed with which I can aquire an acceptable sight picture improved dramatically. Instead of seeing the front sight lift, losing it, then seeing it again I now see it the whole time in a smooth arc coming to rest back on target. I was trying to muscle the pistol back on target faster and losing smoothness in the process.

I'm kind of surprised Matt didn't suggest closing your eyes as I got the idea from his video. In person he adjusted my grip an imperceptable amount and my shooting also improved. Awesome instructor.

Alan

[benos]

In all cases - whether shooting at speed or shooting groups - the quickest way for your mind to know exactly where the bullet went is to be looking right at the sights throughout the instant the gun fired.

It can be beneficial, however, to understand how the difference in the intent required by the two activities - speed or group shooting - will affect how you "control recoil."

I've found that it's good to forget all about controlling recoil while shooting groups. Not only does it not matter, but thinking about recoil while group shooting will waste some of the attention required to shoot good groups. You will master group shooting much faster if you make figuring out how to shoot the smallest group possible - while NEVER looking at the target until you've called the last shot (of the group) - your primary goal.

While shooting a string of fire, of course you'll want your gun to return to it's initial position as quickly as possible. After only a little practice, however, this happens without any effort required on your part, simply due to the your intention to shoot the next shot as quickly as possible. Bill Drills are great practice to improve this skill.

You're not done with the shot until you've called the shot, whether you're shooting groups or Bill Drills.

be

[Sac Law Man]

Thanks Brian, and everyone else..I'll work on it and post my obsevations soon..

John

[Flexmoney]

Sac Law Man,

Reading this post, I see where Brian is telling you (here) the same thing the Burkett was telling you in person.

I think the message here is absolutely vital. And, I fear that many times, shooters don't allow themselves to "get it".

The message(s) is trusting your read of the gun/sight/dot.

I don't like to make blanket statement like this too often, but I am wiling to say that it is highly unlikely that a shooter will progress beyond a "certain level" without mastering the skills of calling the shot...and allowing themselves to trust what they see from the call (and not having to ever look at the target to see where the round went).

And, I would think that, the only one a shooter can build up the trust in their shot calling would be to work at getting really good at shot calling. That would have to include working at it with the variety of targets that we are presented with in our various shooting challenges..

[standles]

But that .45 makes such nice big holes it draws your eyes to them

Maybe I can find a sheet of the self healing plastic stuff to hang infront of my cardboard backer. I fire the shots (self healing so no holes to look at) then afterwards check for my grouping on the back behind it.

Whatcha think a new target to market...?

My luck would be the next person posts a link to the item already being produced. Day late and Dollar short. I am going to have that engraved on my headstone.

[Loves2Shoot]

But that .45 makes such nice big holes it draws your eyes to them  .

If you can see the holes on the target (even with a .45) then you are putting your focus in the wrong place or you are looking at the target longer than needed.

[Flexmoney]

standles,

I've taken shooter with the same issue and put a black T-hirt over top of the target...just so that can see the holes.

[standles]

agree on both counts.. But they are such pretty holes LOL

When group shooting I do have to conciously force myself to not look at the group as I shoot.

If I don't I find myself worrying more abot where to put the next shot to improve the group han sight alingment and trigger control

(Sorry for the speklking erros I am lazy)

[j1b]

This feels a little like overthinking things.

Yes, make the shot as clean as possible. See it through. Your body will do things in the interest of accomplishing what the mind is asking. The traditional "flinch"

I love letting the gun work for me. It's what I miss when I dry fire. But I play in that as well. As long as you have the formula that works, and you can interpret what you see with results then I wouldn't sweat it.

I always have to keep in mind as I spend time in this forum that I have to understand what I see. You'll hear it talked about all the time - visual acuity, see what you need to see, open up your vision etc. etc. There is a second piece to this and that is understanding how what you see converts to paper. While the traditional sight picture leads to good shots, in speed drills things change. The gun moves and at least I steer a bit. What I've learned to do though is interpret such that what I see may not necessarily be what happens but instantaneously I understand that what I saw will lead to "X." Keep in mind that the vision is still open but you have to understand what the vision is telling you. Shooting isn't "Green Eggs and Ham" it's more like "Moby Dick". Sometimes there is more to what you see and you've got to learn what that piece is (as do I ).

Now I've overcomplicated the process. I continue to feel like shooting is a fairly simple act, its what we do while we shoot that complicates it.

JB

[infinity]

But that .45 makes such nice big holes it draws your eyes to them  .

If you can see the holes on the target (even with a .45) then you are putting your focus in the wrong place or you are looking at the target longer than needed.

if this is true then i'm doing it all wrong....when i shoot a COF no mater wha the distance is my focus is in between the front sight and the target so most of the time the front sight is blured and the target is more on my focus. i asked this already here on BEforum regarding what to when aiming. what i was told is for long diastance, focus on target with front sight blured. with short distance, focus on the target...would someone please enlighten me without scolding me for being dumb

[kevin c]

Since short round hasn't chimed in here with his story, I'll tell it for him.

He was having trouble with transitioning to the next target. A local master, since moved to Brazil, told him,"You're looking for the holes, man".

As BE said, know where your sights are when the shot breaks.

I actually tried that this weekend, at 25 yds from my freestyle platform. I saw three of the five off as being perfect, two GOK (God Only Knows). I had, on checking the target, three shots in a neat cloverleaf, and the other two way off.

Now to get to 5 for 5...

[Eye Cutter]

jb1: excellent post!

jay: your focus should be at the front sight as the shot goes off. are you going to be at the Level 2 match this weekend? see you there!

[infinity]

jb1: excellent post!

jay: your focus should be at the front sight as the shot goes off. are you going to be at the Level 2 match this weekend? see you there!

Hi Doc,

I don't think i'll be able to go...having some problems lately that needs some attention...but if i can i'll drop by and look for u.

L2S,

Thanks for PM!!!

[Loves2Shoot]

Glad it made some sense

[bountyhunter]

Your body will do things in the interest of accomplishing what the mind is asking. The traditional "flinch"

When I watch a shooter video like John Shaw shooting a Beretta .40 (96FS) and I see the amount of muzzle rise after each shot before the next is only about an inch: it is clear there are fast-twitch muscles activating to stop the rise of the gun and bring it down quickly.

I do exactly the same thing and when the gun misfires and those muscles still activate at the pre-set time after trigger pull, the muzzle will go down a bit... the flinch. I have given up believeing I can ever eliminate this and I am not convinced it is a bad thing if it occurs at the correct time. If you drop the muzzle BEFORE you fire, that will screw up the shot.

For deliberate slow fire, I think it is easy to "switch off" the "anti rise reflex". As you shoot faster, I believe it comes in automatically. Bottom line, if the shots are going where aimed, you are doing it right.

[bountyhunter]

I got out of the habit of trying to force the pistol back down by shooting with my eyes closed and letting the pistol recoil and come back naturally.

I noticed the same thing. Forcing actually takes longer than "going with the flow". It's also a lot more tiring. Reminds me of the poster of the turtle with the caption:

"The hurrieder I go, the longer it takes."

[Singlestack]

For deliberate slow fire, I think it is easy to "switch off" the "anti rise reflex". As you shoot faster, I believe it comes in automatically. Bottom line, if the shots are going where aimed, you are doing it right.

I agree with this. If I am group shooting I switch "it" off and I get a lot of muzzle rise and the muzzle stays high after the shot. When I'm speed shooting "it" comes on automatically and somehow the muzzle does not flip as much and comes right back where it started.

Now that I have said this I am going to pretend I have never noticed "it" at all so I don't over think "it".