REF or not (activator popper stops partway down)

[Sarge]

REF for sure.

I am very interested to hear your expanded perspective on the REF. I consider your Sage-like wisdom and extensive experience a boon to these forums.

God I hope you don't put too much stock in everything I say!!

As for the REF, the steel was falling or you could even say it fell but it got caught by the cable or some other problem with the rest of the apparatus. i don't see it as any different than shooting the cable before the steel. Then when the steel falls nothing happens because the cable is broken. Stands to reason that if the steel falls and nothing happens it's REF.

Then again you always check steel for problems during calibration as well. When the RM WALKS UP TO the steel he makes sure it isn't broken or inoperable in some way before he shoots it. If there was something preventing it from working other than adjustment that is clear cut REF

[blueeyedme]

If the RO see's it dangling on the cable, it's a clear REF. If in the heat of the moment the shooter pops it again and it falls there is not much to talk about.

[Gary Stevens]

The reason I asked about the hit was poppers are designed and calibrated to fall with a minor hit in the calibration zone.

A hit below that zone may or may not take the popper down which in this case may be important due to the activator.

A poor set up regardless.

[Nik Habicht]

REF for sure.

I am very interested to hear your expanded perspective on the REF. I consider your Sage-like wisdom and extensive experience a boon to these forums.

I'm not Sarge, but I agree with the call. If the popper starts to fall and is then held up by an activator cable, there's a problem. It needs to be fixed -- and this possibility is one of the reasons I dislike using poppers as activators, unless they have the Ruoff modification. I'd much rather use doors, port covers, stomp boxes or other mechanism that don't rely on a shot to activate movers....

[motosapiens]

REF for sure.

I am very interested to hear your expanded perspective on the REF. I consider your Sage-like wisdom and extensive experience a boon to these forums.

I'm not Sarge, but I agree with the call. If the popper starts to fall and is then held up by an activator cable, there's a problem. It needs to be fixed -- and this possibility is one of the reasons I dislike using poppers as activators, unless they have the Ruoff modification. I'd much rather use doors, port covers, stomp boxes or other mechanism that don't rely on a shot to activate movers....

or you could just make the cable 2-3" longer, so the popper has enough momentum to overcome any reasonable resistance. Sadly, I neglected that during setup/calibration.

What is a ruoff modification?

[Nik Habicht]

The Ruoff Modification is a bracket that attaches using the bolt that holds the popper face to the hinge mechanism near the bottom. The bracket accepts a hunk of 1x2 typically 2-3 feet long, that sticks out at right angles to the popper face, parallel to the ground, in front of the popper, when the popper is set. Attached to the end of the 1x2 is the activator wire.

The beauty of that set-up is that as the popper falls, the stick rises to vertical through a 2-3 foot radius arc -- thereby pulling the activator stick farther than a falling popper would have pulled it, and more reliably ensuring activation of the moving target mechanism......

The Ruoff modification is named after one of our competitors who fabricated it for us.....

[gng4life]

Nik, do you have pics or videos? I would really like to see that? Have you had any problems with those 1x2's breaking? Were you guys having that many problems with poppers activating targets? With the weight of the popper (full size - pepper), it will usually pull anything as long as it doesn't some unreasonable resistance on the wire. I have been setting up activating targets for years and I've my fair share of screw-ups but if set correctly, there is usually never an issue. Thanks

[frag316]

The reason I asked about the hit was poppers are designed and calibrated to fall with a minor hit in the calibration zone.

A hit below that zone may or may not take the popper down which in this case may be important due to the activator.

A poor set up regardless.

That's an interesting point, but would it change the call?

You can't calibrate a popper that's partially down, so the call has to be REF, regardless of where the competitor hit the popper. The calibration zone is really only relevant when the competitor calls for calibration, and the hit can be anywhere on the popper to ask for a calibration (4.3.1.5).

[gng4life]

The reason I asked about the hit was poppers are designed and calibrated to fall with a minor hit in the calibration zone.

A hit below that zone may or may not take the popper down which in this case may be important due to the activator.

A poor set up regardless.

That's an interesting point, but would it change the call?

You can't calibrate a popper that's partially down, so the call has to be REF, regardless of where the competitor hit the popper. The calibration zone is really only relevant when the competitor calls for calibration, and the hit can be anywhere on the popper to ask for a calibration (4.3.1.5).

Gary is a genius with this stuff so I can see what path he is looking at. I'm sure he's forgotten more rules than most of us know.

[frag316]

I'm not disputing his genius here, I'm asking him to explain something, based on how I read the rules.

And I've had Gary as an RO at at least one of the SS Nationals I've shot, so I'm not doubting his experience.

Sheesh.

[gng4life]

No problem, just lightening up things and look for a laugh...

[PKT1106]

Sarge, thanks.

I guess what I am struggling with is that the second, arguably more well placed shot knocked it down immediately. No hesitation for that steel to fall on the second shot. I am not arguing against the REF, but being around the sport for some years, I, as I am sure you have, seen steel that is in perfect order and calibrated, hit low with a round and move a little and stay standing. The shooter called for calibration and lost hard.

Now, I know this is a little different with the cable and activator, but if the calibration comes and knocks it down with a shot in the calibration zone and activates the prop, it isn't a REF. It was the shooter's shot placement maybe combined with an under-powered round.

So, I guess what I am asking is how can we make a call on the spot with so many variables from the shooter and their equipment?

[motosapiens]

Sarge, thanks.

I guess what I am struggling with is that the second, arguably more well placed shot knocked it down immediately. No hesitation for that steel to fall on the second shot. I am not arguing against the REF, but being around the sport for some years, I, as I am sure you have, seen steel that is in perfect order and calibrated, hit low with a round and move a little and stay standing. The shooter called for calibration and lost hard.

Now, I know this is a little different with the cable and activator, but if the calibration comes and knocks it down with a shot in the calibration zone and activates the prop, it isn't a REF. It was the shooter's shot placement maybe combined with an under-powered round.

So, I guess what I am asking is how can we make a call on the spot with so many variables from the shooter and their equipment?

That was a little bit of my thought too, especially during the stage in the heat of the moment. It wasn't until i saw the video that I clearly saw that the popper moved past the tipping point, enough to draw the activator cable tight, and then stopped there. If not for the cable, the popper would have fallen. But imho it is not reasonable to expect the RO to be able to discern that during the stage if the popper is immediately shot down.

If we had simply set the popper up so that the cable didn't get tight until it had fallen a little further, it wouldn't have been any issue. All in all an interesting learning experience, and entirely appropriate that one of the people who set up the stage was the one who was affected by the poor setup. lol.

[Sarge]

Sarge, thanks.

I guess what I am struggling with is that the second, arguably more well placed shot knocked it down immediately. No hesitation for that steel to fall on the second shot. I am not arguing against the REF, but being around the sport for some years, I, as I am sure you have, seen steel that is in perfect order and calibrated, hit low with a round and move a little and stay standing. The shooter called for calibration and lost hard.

Now, I know this is a little different with the cable and activator, but if the calibration comes and knocks it down with a shot in the calibration zone and activates the prop, it isn't a REF. It was the shooter's shot placement maybe combined with an under-powered round.

So, I guess what I am asking is how can we make a call on the spot with so many variables from the shooter and their equipment?

I would just ask myself what would happen if I cut the cable? The steel would of course fall. There is no way calibration comes into play if it is leaning back on a tight cable.

I have ran shooters and shot stages where this happened. Sometimes it was noticed immediately and we stopped. Sometimes it didn't get noticed until we got to the mover and it wasn't there.

[gng4life]

I can see what you are saying Moto...it's tough to call in the "heat of battle". I think it comes with experience - seeing it before helps to identify what just happened. Then you have to make a judgement call about did it move enough to fall if it was free from cables or other variables.

[PKT1106]

I would just ask myself what would happen if I cut the cable? The steel would of course fall. There is no way calibration comes into play if it is leaning back on a tight cable.

Once again, I am not arguing the REF, but I think this is the line I am having trouble with. Of course we can "what if" all day long, but as ROs, aren't we supposed to score what is there and not make calls based on hypothetical (for lack of a better term) situations? I agree that the steel probably would have fallen, but it goes back to my anecdote about shooters hitting just a piece of steel and it moving, but not falling because they nicked it, or hit low, or had an under-powered round.

[gng4life]

... I agree that the steel probably would have fallen, but it goes back to my anecdote about shooters hitting just a piece of steel and it moving, but not falling because they nicked it, or hit low, or had an under-powered round.

It was a good hit, the steel was leaning so far back, there is no way it would have not fallen. I understand what you are saying about the popper waving and shaking but this is just not a little movement or shaking. Look that video again, it was leaning so far back, it was past the tipping point and gravity was taking over.

[Sarge]

I would just ask myself what would happen if I cut the cable? The steel would of course fall. There is no way calibration comes into play if it is leaning back on a tight cable.

Once again, I am not arguing the REF, but I think this is the line I am having trouble with. Of course we can "what if" all day long, but as ROs, aren't we supposed to score what is there and not make calls based on hypothetical (for lack of a better term) situations? I agree that the steel probably would have fallen, but it goes back to my anecdote about shooters hitting just a piece of steel and it moving, but not falling because they nicked it, or hit low, or had an under-powered round.

I get what you are saying. So, let's dont "what if". So, The stage is over and you are scoring and you see a swinger that never activated. What do you have to do? Trace it back to why it never activated. Then inspect the steel to determine if it was hit. You see it was indeed hit and is being held up by the cable. Reshoot

Now here is a good what if! Let's say steel gets shot and the cable not only holds it up but makes it bounce back upright. It will look as though it needs calibrated but it really doesn't. That would have to be witnessed by an RO to really be sure because on a calibration shot it might actually fall. Then you have problems.

Also keep forward falling steel in mind. It leans on a front tab and bounces off of a rear tab to fall forward. If the front tab didn't drop out of the way the popper will hang up on it. Just like a cable holding it up.

[frag316]

I would just ask myself what would happen if I cut the cable? The steel would of course fall. There is no way calibration comes into play if it is leaning back on a tight cable.

Once again, I am not arguing the REF, but I think this is the line I am having trouble with. Of course we can "what if" all day long, but as ROs, aren't we supposed to score what is there and not make calls based on hypothetical (for lack of a better term) situations? I agree that the steel probably would have fallen, but it goes back to my anecdote about shooters hitting just a piece of steel and it moving, but not falling because they nicked it, or hit low, or had an under-powered round.

No one's really "what if"ing here. In my mind, a popper not resting against the stop--whatever that may be--is a REF and should be a directed re-shoot. Poppers balance to either fall or come back to the rest. If the popper is standing and not against a rest, then there's something mechanically wrong with the popper--there may not be enough lubrication on the pivot point, for example. Remember, if the RM calibrates the popper, the RM is supposed to use SUBMINOR ammo hitting inside the calibration zone to do so, to ensure that minor PF ammo works consistently. IIRC, Jay Worden said he likes to/tries to use something like 119 or 121 PF ammo for calibration.

Now I may be wrong, but I'm a firm believer that all ties go to the competitor. So, if a competitor shoots it and it comes to rest at a point where it should have fallen, there's something wrong with the popper--regardless of where on the popper the competitor shoots it. If a competitor shoots it and it comes back to rest in its original position (e.g., resting against the stop that holds it upright), then they have the option of asking for a calibration or taking the miss, because the evidence is pretty clear the competitor either missed it or didn't hit it cleanly.

[Gary Stevens]

The reason I asked about the hit was poppers are designed and calibrated to fall with a minor hit in the calibration zone.

A hit below that zone may or may not take the popper down which in this case may be important due to the activator.

A poor set up regardless.

That's an interesting point, but would it change the call?

You can't calibrate a popper that's partially down, so the call has to be REF, regardless of where the competitor hit the popper. The calibration zone is really only relevant when the competitor calls for calibration, and the hit can be anywhere on the popper to ask for a calibration (4.3.1.5).

Gary is a genius with this stuff so I can see what path he is looking at. I'm sure he's forgotten more rules than most of us know.

Well I've been called many things, but genius is not normally in the mix:)

I only ask for knowledge of the situation. Based on what has been said I would most likely have granted a reshoot if I could have verified the facts. The key is did the tight cable stop the popper or was the hit so low that it did not have the momentum to drop the popper alone. I am interested to know if the popper acted correctly all day long and just acted up or was it a problem previously.

As I said previously though ultimately it was a CRO fail as it was something they should have anticipated.

[motosapiens]

I only ask for knowledge of the situation. Based on what has been said I would most likely have granted a reshoot if I could have verified the facts. The key is did the tight cable stop the popper or was the hit so low that it did not have the momentum to drop the popper alone. I am interested to know if the popper acted correctly all day long and just acted up or was it a problem previously.

As I said previously though ultimately it was a CRO fail as it was something they should have anticipated.

It appears to me like the tight cable stopped the popper. It also appears to me that the hit was so low (or edge) that it didn't have the momentum to drive the popper through that tight spot. When it was hit in the calbration zone, it appeared that the popper did have enough momentum to drive through the tight spot, release the cable and continue falling.

So it's kind of an in-between situation. The popper appeared to act correctly when hit in the calibration zone (We did have a couple failures when the pin was over-inserted on a drop-turner on another stage. I have no idea if that was ever a problem on this one).

[Nik Habicht]

Nik, do you have pics or videos? I would really like to see that? Have you had any problems with those 1x2's breaking? Were you guys having that many problems with poppers activating targets? With the weight of the popper (full size - pepper), it will usually pull anything as long as it doesn't some unreasonable resistance on the wire. I have been setting up activating targets for years and I've my fair share of screw-ups but if set correctly, there is usually never an issue. Thanks

No pics, but I'll try to get some in April. I don't know that we were having that many problems -- but when you're trying to run 80 shooters through a 6 stage or a 1005 competitors through a seven stage match, in a single day, every single reshoot mucks things up a little more....

If set correctly, is kind of the key. With same day set-up and teardown, and embedded ROs we've found that this setup works more goodly, than just attaching a clamp to a popper......

[Poppa Bear]

I only ask for knowledge of the situation. Based on what has been said I would most likely have granted a reshoot if I could have verified the facts. The key is did the tight cable stop the popper or was the hit so low that it did not have the momentum to drop the popper alone. I am interested to know if the popper acted correctly all day long and just acted up or was it a problem previously.

As I said previously though ultimately it was a CRO fail as it was something they should have anticipated.

It appears to me like the tight cable stopped the popper. It also appears to me that the hit was so low (or edge) that it didn't have the momentum to drive the popper through that tight spot. When it was hit in the calbration zone, it appeared that the popper did have enough momentum to drive through the tight spot, release the cable and continue falling.

So it's kind of an in-between situation. The popper appeared to act correctly when hit in the calibration zone (We did have a couple failures when the pin was over-inserted on a drop-turner on another stage. I have no idea if that was ever a problem on this one).

What I saw is a tight cable after the first shot. When the second shot hit it transferred most of its power to the tension on the cable so it was able to pull the pin. If the pin was over inserted it is very possible that even 180+ PF ammo did not have the ability to pull the pin. It is also possible that the first shot got the pin about half way out and the second shot finished the pull.

We hopefully learn every time something like this happens and make the changes needed to make sure it does not happen again, but we cannot set up all of the stages solo. I like Niks idea of the extension to give it more range of motion.

Nik, any problems with the extension changing the balance to a point that it is very difficult to get good calibration on moderately windy days?