ESP vs. SSP

[MilkMyDuds]

I am new to IDPA, but in the few sanctioned matches I participated I noticed that SSP shooters always out shoot ESP in equivalent classes (SS, EX and MA). In SS and EX, the SSP shooters dominated the top 5 slots. Does anyone know why is that the case? I thought ESP is faster, at least for classifiers.

Is it because people with MA/EX in ESP feeling bored and now started in SSP? If this is the case, wouldn't it be easier for new SSP shooters (SSP shooters who shoot classifiers will be automatically classified in both SSP and ESP) to actually shoot all the way to EX/MA in ESP using their SSP gun first (because of the lack of competition there)?

I wish ESP and SSP are counted as just one division.

Any insight?

Edited March 17, 2015 by MilkMyDuds

[rowdyb]

i think you're experiencing a local variance. i for one am glad esp and ssp are not one division.

what i've experienced is a little different from you. most people start in ssp if they already have a 9 or cdp if they have a 45. they play at that till they get tired or feel they are stagnant. then they switch to esp. get a gun they can tinker with 'cause the rules are looser. shoot a gun with a 'better' trigger like a 9mm or 40sw 1911, a da/sa cz started 'cocked and locked' or a striker gun with the high dollar aftermarket triggers.

as to who is faster overall at a match, ssp or esp, it all depends on who showed up in the ex or ma classes. most of the people winning the match overall can and do shoot multiple divisions, so they are capable with any thing really.

another factor why at bigger matches you see ssp as the fastest is because there is more sponsorship involved with the guns in ssp than in esp. thus at the very top that drives more competition and better results. if you are at the top you are probably also shooting uspsa. you get an easier cross over in your competing and training if you shoot ssp/production. to do so in esp you'd be shooting esp/L-10 minor. not very many people take that choice.

Edited March 17, 2015 by rowdyb

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

i for one am glad esp and ssp are not one division.

Could you explain why? I haven't seen much performance difference at all.

[MWP]

i for one am glad esp and ssp are not one division.

Could you explain why? I haven't seen much performance difference at all.

Final score difference, no. Equiptment difference, yes.

Many people feel like there is a significant enough difference in the 2 divisions equipment rules to warrant 2 divisions.

[MWP]

To answer your original question, as rowdyb said, it's all about who shows up, and the local crowd. It's not uncommon to see CDP shooters or even a revo shooter win a club match.

[GOF]

I think the intent of separate SSP and ESP divisions is to have 'mostly' stock guns (regardless of their trigger system) in SSP... while ESP gets to do magwells and other stuff. In terms of scores and Classifier times, there really isn't much difference between a tricked out 9mm 1911 and a tricked out M&P, Glock, or XD. ... except, those three don't malf as much

[jsg]

I have to agree it is a lot of who shows up at any given local match and to a lesser extent how the stages are designed. We have some very talented shooters mixed in the ESP, CDP, and SSP groups. At any random monthly match, any one of those three groups could contain the overall winner. We average about 55 shooters in the spring/summer/fall and about 30 in the winter.

I also shoot a weekly indoor match. Based on those that attend that match, it is always an ESP or SSP shooter who is overall winner.

A bit of a side note: We only have about 4 shooters that ever shoot revolver. None of them have won a match in the last 5 years but one of them has been very close a few times.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Final score difference, no. Equipment difference, yes.

Many people feel like there is a significant enough difference in the 2 divisions equipment rules to warrant 2 divisions.

If there's no discernable difference in final scores, why separate them out into two divisions? I'm sure they expected a big difference when they created them, but things haven't played out as expected.

[MilkMyDuds]

To answer your original question, as rowdyb said, it's all about who shows up, and the local crowd. It's not uncommon to see CDP shooters or even a revo shooter win a club match.

I am talking about state/regional matches, not local club matches.

[MWP]

Final score difference, no. Equipment difference, yes.

Many people feel like there is a significant enough difference in the 2 divisions equipment rules to warrant 2 divisions.

If there's no discernable difference in final scores, why separate them out into two divisions? I'm sure they expected a big difference when they created them, but things haven't played out as expected.

Hey I'm with you on this one, I don't think there's any difference in the two divisions. Make them one. It's all about shooter skill to me.

[Bob Hostetter]

The perceived advantages of ESP over SSP are more helpfully at the lower classifications levels then at the top. An example might be if you are still hitting the edge of the magwell opening when reloading an enlarged magwell would be very helpful. But if you are a MA or DM and hitting the center 999 times out of a 1000, its value is much less.

[rowdyb]

I like that they are different division due to getting to shoot different guns. It for me then is about the gun and not the final score. I've shot state matches where I shot ssp and beat the esp guys and vice versa. Lets look at some of my expert results from last year over a broad time range and geographic locations.

since you wanted data from state and regional matches.

Nov 2014. north az high country shootout. i was esp expert and esp division champion. 130.04. the winner of ssp expert was 155.75.

Aug 2014. michigan state. i was ssp expert winner at 195.99. esp expert winner was 192.67

may 2014. missouri state. i was 2nd esp expert at 197.19. second ssp expert was 216.70 (first was 206.25.)

april 2014. AZ state. i was 1st esp expert (since kurt was DC as an esp ex) at 203.63. first place ssp expert was 204.38

I think this backs up the assertion that at the higher levels it is the shooter, not the gun. if you wanted it to be all about "shooter skill" then there would be no divisions or classifications. truly open. very few people in idpa would appreciate that. now that i'm in the MA classification, i'm certainly cool with that. but if you look at the stats, the overwhelming majority of shooters in idpa are mm and ss and never go above that.

Edited March 17, 2015 by rowdyb

[MilkMyDuds]

I like that they are different division due to getting to shoot different guns. It for me then is about the gun and not the final score. I've shot state matches where I shot ssp and beat the esp guys and vice versa. Lets look at some of my expert results from last year over a broad time range and geographic locations.

since you wanted data from state and regional matches.

Nov 2014. north az high country shootout. i was esp expert and esp division champion. 130.04. the winner of ssp expert was 155.75.

Aug 2014. michigan state. i was ssp expert winner at 195.99. esp expert winner was 192.67

may 2014. missouri state. i was 2nd esp expert at 197.19. second ssp expert was 216.70 (first was 206.25.)

april 2014. AZ state. i was 1st esp expert (since kurt was DC as an esp ex) at 203.63. first place ssp expert was 204.38

I think this backs up the assertion that at the higher levels it is the shooter, not the gun. if you wanted it to be all about "shooter skill" then there would be no divisions or classifications. truly open. very few people in idpa would appreciate that. now that i'm in the MA classification, i'm certainly cool with that. but if you look at the stats, the overwhelming majority of shooters in idpa are mm and ss and never go above that.

Thanks for the insight. Makes sense. Did you get to MA in one division then started from MM/SS in the other? Or did you get both to EX first then went to MA? Just curious, because it would be intimidating to have SSP MA shooting in ESP SS in a match

[swearengen]

^^ It doesn't work like that. "9.5.1 A shooter's highest and lowest Classification in a semi-auto division can only differ by one Classification level."

So if you are a MA in SSP you start at EX in ESP.

Edited March 18, 2015 by swearengen

[rowdyb]

it didn't used to be that way, the equity promotion rule came into being the same time the flat footed reload was introduced. so back in 2012 yeah, you could be ssp ma and esp ss if you wanted. one reason why people jumped gun divisions a lot. i had one friend who was ssp ex who went to a match as esp mm and set a score that beat all the mm, ss and would have won ex too. sandbagging was a different beast back then.....

milkmyduds asked how it went for me. i classified ssp and esp ss on the same day, shooting two classifiers back to back with a ssp glock 34. again, before the current rule that lets you apply one gun across multiple divisions. i bumped to ssp ex off a match win. then i classified cdp ss and bumped to cdp ex off a match win. then i switched to esp and bumped to esp ex off a match win. then i tried tons to bump to esp ma off a win and was always second. so i went back to ssp and bumped to ssp ma off a match win. went back and shot the classifier again in esp and made esp ma off that 87second run. did this all over the space of two years.

[MilkMyDuds]

it didn't used to be that way, the equity promotion rule came into being the same time the flat footed reload was introduced. so back in 2012 yeah, you could be ssp ma and esp ss if you wanted. one reason why people jumped gun divisions a lot. i had one friend who was ssp ex who went to a match as esp mm and set a score that beat all the mm, ss and would have won ex too. sandbagging was a different beast back then.....

milkmyduds asked how it went for me. i classified ssp and esp ss on the same day, shooting two classifiers back to back with a ssp glock 34. again, before the current rule that lets you apply one gun across multiple divisions. i bumped to ssp ex off a match win. then i classified cdp ss and bumped to cdp ex off a match win. then i switched to esp and bumped to esp ex off a match win. then i tried tons to bump to esp ma off a win and was always second. so i went back to ssp and bumped to ssp ma off a match win. went back and shot the classifier again in esp and made esp ma off that 87second run. did this all over the space of two years.

Fascinating experience. You must have shot tons of sanctioned matches in 2 years Thanks for sharing.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Hey I'm with you on this one, I don't think there's any difference in the two divisions. Make them one. It's all about shooter skill to me.

Ron Larimer ran the numbers on the IDPA Nationals and confirmed that it's not the arrow; it's the Indian:

As I stared and sorted and ran statistics, I noticed that the curves looked the same they were just squished because of the number of people shooting. So I plotted them based on the shooters percentile rank in the division and there was no difference! 10th percentile in ESP is 10th percentile in SSP is 10th percentile in CDP and the same holds true at the 20th percentile and 50th.

The only place that the division seems to make any difference is in the Marksman ranks where trigger control, recoil management and weapons manipulations might not be as well developed.

[MilkMyDuds]

Hey I'm with you on this one, I don't think there's any difference in the two divisions. Make them one. It's all about shooter skill to me.

Ron Larimer ran the numbers on the IDPA Nationals and confirmed that it's not the arrow; it's the Indian:

As I stared and sorted and ran statistics, I noticed that the curves looked the same they were just squished because of the number of people shooting. So I plotted them based on the shooters percentile rank in the division and there was no difference! 10th percentile in ESP is 10th percentile in SSP is 10th percentile in CDP and the same holds true at the 20th percentile and 50th.

The only place that the division seems to make any difference is in the Marksman ranks where trigger control, recoil management and weapons manipulations might not be as well developed.

This study also confirms my theory:

Even stranger, with the exception of Jerry “Stock” Service Pistol beat “Enhanced” Service Pistol straight through the field!

[rowdyb]

I think I shot over 15 major matches in my first two years....

Very first local/pistol match Sept 2012. Classified Oct 2012 SS in ssp and esp. First major match in April 2013. Last major in Oct 2014. So yeah, 15 major matches in 19 months.

A54426 is my idpa number. I stalk my competitors ahead of time on the web as well.

Edited March 18, 2015 by rowdyb

[jsg]

I agree the equipment seems to make a much bigger difference at the lower classification levels. I know it does for me (SS in all 4).

Once you are a legitimate master (or expert/master borderline) in any auto class, you usually can perform nearly as well in the other auto classes. You don't get to that level relying on equipment to compensate for any technique issues.

Revolvers are a different animal so I would not say they would apply to this observation.

[19852]

ESP is great for those who like to tinker with their guns. It has a little more freedom than SSP.

[Wesquire]

They at least need to bump up the weight limit in esp. They are too close to make any sense.

[himurax13]

I am new to IDPA, but in the few sanctioned matches I participated I noticed that SSP shooters always out shoot ESP in equivalent classes (SS, EX and MA). In SS and EX, the SSP shooters dominated the top 5 slots. Does anyone know why is that the case? I thought ESP is faster, at least for classifiers.

Is it because people with MA/EX in ESP feeling bored and now started in SSP? If this is the case, wouldn't it be easier for new SSP shooters (SSP shooters who shoot classifiers will be automatically classified in both SSP and ESP) to actually shoot all the way to EX/MA in ESP using their SSP gun first (because of the lack of competition there)?

I wish ESP and SSP are counted as just one division.

Any insight?

I have noticed this as well. I think most people to prefer to play in SSP so they don't have to fiddle with their equipment as much. It is also easier to transition your equipment to play in the Production Division for those who play both sports.

[dafdov368]

The only big benefit of esp from ssp is shooting a single action gun like a 1911. If your shooting it regularly, you have probably tinkered with your gun in some way, there's a ton of people that have added some kind of trigger kit to guns that I shoot with, and hardly anyone that's running a completely stock gun.

I guess the biggest part for me is esp I ever so slightly more competitive for bigger matches.

[ArrDave]

I think the biggest difference between the two is single action vs. DASA or Striker in the classifier.

Most stages for IDPA are pretty much in 7-12 yard range generally and the more forgiving SA trigger really can be exploited at longer shots out at 20 yards, but those shots are typically rare in IDPA, however the classifer stage 3 it is not. At this point the difference between the divisions is about 4 points, which could be attributable to accuracy on stage 3 entirely. The big boys can all run their triggers the same so it shouldn't matter, but it is still different.

Can you drop in good SSP legal trigger kits and gunsmith fitted barrels into Glocks? absolutely, but it's more the exception than the rule.