First Open Gun

[ELSOS]

My fiancée is looking to get into open gun shooting. I am a production and single stack guy myself and not as familiar as I would like to be with open guns. I'd like to get her into a good used gun first but the big question for me is 9mm major or 38 Super. I know the 9mm is cheaper to reload but there are some pretty good deals on 38 Super guns out there. Any thoughts between the two and if I get a good deal on a 38 Super can it be re-barreled to a 9mm major gun?

[kneelingatlas]

The 38 super gun can be rebarreled to 9mm although it may need some extractor work to be reliable; there are even some mad men around here shooting 9mm out of a 38 barrel with no I'll effects...

Edited February 19, 2015 by kneelingatlas

[Steve RA]

You can also shoot 9mm in many of the .38 Super guns, many of the members on this site do so.

[Hi-Power Jack]

there are some good deals on 38 Super guns.

You might ask yourself WHY are the deals on .38 Supers,

and not 9mm's.

Lot easier to feed (IMHO) the 9mm's - pay a few extra

bucks for the 9mm and you're all set to go.

[A63111]

First of all I own both 9mm and 38 SC open guns. The biggest is having to pickup the 38 brass. The 9 doesn't cost that much to shoot and leave the brass.

While you can shoot 9mm from a 38 you are relying on the extractor hook to hold the rounds rather than the casemouth, this puts lots of wear on the extracor and can lead to other problems.

I like the 38 SC more but when i don't feel like picking up brass it's the 9mm.

IMO other's opinions will vary.

[Foxbat]

I made a small fortune selling the 38SC brass that I had accumulated... now I pay less than one penny for 9mm and feel totally free!

[ELSOS]

I was thinking that 9mm Major was the way to go. Now the question is a 2011 style gun or CZ Czechmate. I will be able to get her to shoot a 2011 but not so much a Czechmate. She has small hands and its difficult to find something she's comfortable with. Anyone have experience with the Czechmate? My production gun is an ACCU, is the grip on the Czechmate similar?

[kneelingatlas]

I was thinking that 9mm Major was the way to go. Now the question is a 2011 style gun or CZ Czechmate. I will be able to get her to shoot a 2011 but not so much a Czechmate. She has small hands and its difficult to find something she's comfortable with. Anyone have experience with the Czechmate? My production gun is an ACCU, is the grip on the Czechmate similar?

The grip is bigger on the CM than on a Shadow, does she like a heavy gun? the CM weighs ~49oz unloaded, by comparison my full sized 2011 and my custom CZ75SA based Open guns are ~42oz. I'm planning a sub 40oz build based on the 75SA

[gng4life]

One thing you might want to look at is a "plastic" Open gun. I am in the midst of building one now for mine also. The weight and size of the grips of my 2011s was an issue so after playing with the M&P for a while, she is liking that weight and feel. Just something to think about.

On the caliber, I would go 9Major. The 38SC is an excellent round and if I had an unlimited supply of brass and never had to pick it up, I'd still be shooting that. That is the one area that really took away the sales of 38 Supers in general. Most of the big name shooters just about all run 38 since they get sponsors to supply the ammo and such. Those of us that need to watch our brass usually go with 9Major now. Also, I shoot other disciplines and those are 9mm also so it's more streamlined to load a single caliber.

[BeerBaron]

I personally felt the czechmate better for smaller hands than a 2011. but on a 2011 you can do a grip reduction which would close the gap a bit.

[MrPostman]

If you are worried about losing some brass then the way to go is 9mm open gun but your powder and bullet choices will be limited. I shoot 38 super and while I do pickup brass to reload it won't kill me to lose some. If you can spend a couple grand on a gun then losing some brass isn't the end of the world. Of couse you won't lose it during practice and you can reload the 38 super brass while the 9mm isn't going to be a good candidate for a 2nd major pf loading.

[Hi-Power Jack]

9mm isn't going to be a good candidate for a 2nd major pf loading.

I haven't had any trouble loading 9mm major more than once.

[MrPostman]

9mm isn't going to be a good candidate for a 2nd major pf loading.

I haven't had any trouble loading 9mm major more than once.

I am glad you have had success reloading them. I do pickup 9mm match brass and I can always tell which ones were major by the amount of force I have to exert on the lever when resizing them. I still use the brass but for 9mm minor pf loads only. I guess it just depends on the brand/toughness of brass you are using and how tight the chamber is on the gun you are shooting them out of. I just prefer to not take the chance especially when most people shoot 9 major just to avoid picking up brass.

[kneelingatlas]

Mr. Postman,

I get that you like your 38 Open gun, I have three myself, but some of the points you make against 9 just aren't consistent with my experience.

Saying you may lose "some brass" is an understatement, I bought every piece of 38 brass I have and my stock dlindles every time I shoot it, by contrast, I've never bought a piece of 9 brass and my stock increases every time I bother to stick around to split up brass.

"9mm isn't going to be a good candidate for a 2nd major pf loading"

I've never tracked how many times I've loaded a piece of 9 brass, I've never had a failure, and I've only ever caught one split case while reloading. By virtue of how much new 9 brass comes into the system in the places I shoot by people shooting factory ammo and leaving it behind, the chances of a 9 case being loaded until it splits are pretty slim.

Lastly, powder and bullet choices... Depending on the length of barrel and the number of holes I'll concede a limit of powder choices to some extent, but bullet choices???

I load 9 major in a 5" barrel w/o holes using SP2 (similar to 3n38) under a 115gr bullet. The minimum bullet weight for USPSA Open major is 112gr, so I don't see any disadvantage there and I dont actually know anyone who routinely shoots a powder slower than that in a 38; most people I know shoot HS6 or WAC in their 38s with 124gr bullets, no problem in a 9mm either.

I'll agree if you go to extremes with barrel ports or a short barrel, 38 super can make major with the next slower powder or maybe a slightly lighter bullet, but in my experience once you get over 10gr of powder in the case, it just gets too violent to keep track of the dot.

I have switched from 115s to 124s in my most violent guns so I can back the charge a little and calm the dot, but in my opinion that's moving in the wrong direction.

For each individual there's a unique sweet spot on the spectrum between soft/floppy and flat/violent, but I'm of the opinion 9mm major can get there for the majority of shooters.

If you're a 38 shooter loading 8 (or less) gr of WAC under a 124 and jabbering about the supremecy of 38 over 9, you should really get out more

[MrPostman]

Thanks for sharing your experience Kneelingatlas. I use 9 grains of n105 for my 38 super loads and 7.4 grains of longshot when I don't have the n105. I use xtreme 124 grain fp plated bullets. I shoot with folks that shoot 9 major and if you ask any of them if they reload their brass to major PF after it has been shot at that level they pretty much share the same view that I have. It is possible to do by why would I want to take the chance when 9mm brass is so cheap. If you shoot steel matches there is usually thousands of 9mm brass for the taking in one convenient spot to pick up and none of it has been loaded to major. Im not saying that you shouldn't use once fired brass to load major, just that if the brass you picked up has already been fired at major PF you should probably not use it due to safety concerns.

[kneelingatlas]

I use 9 grains of n105 for my 38 super loads

That is one of the few powders I had in mind

I'm a member of an indoor range littered with once fired 9mm brass at all times, but I still pick up brass from USPSA matches which has undoubtedly been loaded more than a few times, load it and shoot it with no problems, hell, I've loaded cases with the head stamp worn almost completely off Come to think of it, most of my 38 super brass is pretty warn.

[MrPostman]

When I mentioned bullet choices being limited I meant that when you compare the 9mm OAL vs the 38 super OAL plus the volume of powder needed to make major, you will be limited in a certain degree depending on how far you can load the round before your bullet is on the lands. Generally in an open Glock the max OAL is going to be much less than your average STI. Some barrels are just setup better in this regard than others. Some may need to use 124 grain fp bullets because round nose are too long which is what i was basing my limited choices statement on.

[MrPostman]

quote name="kneelingatlas" post="2342008" timestamp="1424707125"]

I use 9 grains of n105 for my 38 super loads

I love this powder! Very slow, makes lots of gas and fills the case very nicely on the 38 super.

That is one of the few powders I had in mind

I'm a member of an indoor range littered with once fired 9mm brass at all times, but I still pick up brass from USPSA matches which has undoubtedly been loaded more than a few times, load it and shoot it with no problems, hell, I've loaded cases with the head stamp worn almost completely off Come to think of it, most of my 38 super brass is pretty warn.

[MrPostman]

Using Mobile version make posting fun..........lol

[lcs]

I've seen some pretty small handed women shoot 2011 Open guns. Tiny Warrior comes to mind.

Plastic open guns require to much work to get them running 100%. In addition, mags are a limiting factor on plastic open guns.

Depending on how much shooting she is going to do....Great deals can be had on used 38SC guns. New 38SC brass is super expensive. 9MM once fired can be found and bought pretty easy.

I've shot both 38SC and 9 Major. 9 Major is cheaper. I hate looking like a chicken at matches. No matter which way to go---Open is expensive!

[cecil]

I shoot 9mm major... & have reused my brass quite a lot.... some as much as a dozen times or more without any problems..... I deprime all my brass on a RCBS jr press... then wet stainless pin clean & load... if I find the primer pockets loose when I deprime... I throw that brass in the recycle bucket.. my brass stash constantly grows because so many folks leave their brass behind...

[lcs]

I shoot 9mm major... & have reused my brass quite a lot.... some as much as a dozen times or more without any problems..... I deprime all my brass on a RCBS jr press... then wet stainless pin clean & load... if I find the primer pockets loose when I deprime... I throw that brass in the recycle bucket.. my brass stash constantly grows because so many folks leave their brass behind...

Yep. Shoot indoors and reclaim my 9 Major brass and reload it numerous times.

[MrPostman]

I've seen some pretty small handed women shoot 2011 Open guns. Tiny Warrior comes to mind.

Plastic open guns require to much work to get them running 100%. In addition, mags are a limiting factor on plastic open guns.

Depending on how much shooting she is going to do....Great deals can be had on used 38SC guns. New 38SC brass is super expensive. 9MM once fired can be found and bought pretty easy.

I've shot both 38SC and 9 Major. 9 Major is cheaper. I hate looking like a chicken at matches. No matter which way to go---Open is expensive!

I usually shoot with a couple of other 38 super shooters in my squad which makes picking up brass a breeze as it is a team effort lol. Plus I have found that most people that pickup the other calibers are extremely helpful and kind enough to give my brass to me once they know what I am shooting.

[MrPostman]

If you had a room with 100 shooters and asked them this question you would probably have 100 different answers. So its all good. If it works for you that is all that matters. Different strokes for different folks and so on and so on and shooby dooby dooooooby. Lol

[lcs]

I've seen some pretty small handed women shoot 2011 Open guns. Tiny Warrior comes to mind.

Plastic open guns require to much work to get them running 100%. In addition, mags are a limiting factor on plastic open guns.

Depending on how much shooting she is going to do....Great deals can be had on used 38SC guns. New 38SC brass is super expensive. 9MM once fired can be found and bought pretty easy.

I've shot both 38SC and 9 Major. 9 Major is cheaper. I hate looking like a chicken at matches. No matter which way to go---Open is expensive!

I usually shoot with a couple of other 38 super shooters in my squad which makes picking up brass a breeze as it is a team effort lol. Plus I have found that most people that pickup the other calibers are extremely helpful and kind enough to give my brass to me once they know what I am shooting.

I've been there also. It's all good. I find, I worry more about my brass than shooting a good stage. I shoot a lot of local matches, does not matter how many people help, brass gets lost in weeds, grass, sand, mud....