Too much powder jams the gun?

[Jimboajubejube]

Hey guys,

I have a somewhat complicated issue to explain and try fix. The gun i am having trouble with is the BUL M5 Government 9mm. The barrel has 2 ports on the end (not strictly a compensator). In shooting IPSC obviously it is considered an open class gun because of such ports.

I am continually getting jams in the gun, specifically failure to feed (out of battery) and failure to extract. I have eliminated certain elements that could cause the jams and these are:

1) I DON'T limp wrist. I know it is the first thing everyone asks when dealing with jams, dont ask me because i dont limp wrist.

2) My rounds do factor through a chrono for minor power factor.

3) my brass is thoroughly checked cleaned and i plunk test all the rounds.

4) according to every gun smith i have spoken to, my magazine springs, followers, base pads etc are all good. I also make sure they are clean.

5) gun is always clean and lubricated correctly.

6) My OAL is correct for the gun and all rounds cycle smoothly.

I am reloading using s121 powder (fast burning) with a 124gr bullet. I have found a possible cause of the jams. This could be loading the rounds too hot? and causing the gun to cycle too fast. I found this out by shooting my reloads vs bought reloads. the bought reloads grouped extremely well where as my reloads were all over the place. This i figured out was because of too much pressure exiting the ports on the barrel causing the gun to move too much. I went back to my reloading data and found that i factored at 4.4 gr but i was actually putting in 4.7 gr due to increasing the length. what i have done is bring the powder down to 4.3gr and i will be shooting the rounds this weekend hopefully with no jams. What my question is, is it possible that a gun can jam when running too hot a load through it? i.e. the action closing too fast therefore causing a failure to feed and the action opening too fast that the extractor, in lay mans terms, looses grip of the brass casing to extract it?

[Sarge]

No.

[NogNog]

How heavy is your recoil spring?

[dauntedfuture]

Have you tried factory ammunition in your pistol? with your reloaded ammo, does it function in other pistols?

If they are STI like magazines, and they DO NOT have spacers you might try loading the 9mm a little longer and see what happens.

Failure to feed is often an ammo length or bullet shape issue.

Failure to extract is related to brass that has not been sized enough, are you saying the pistol fires and the gun stays locked in place, or fires and the extractor rides over the case?

I don't know much about Bul M-5 pistols at all....but... there are lots of bargain 1911 / 2011s out there that just plain have issues....

[Jimboajubejube]

I am not sure how heavy the recoil spring but i will check.

like i said the brass is sized just fine, especially after the plunk test i remove any rounds that do not sit properly or have difficulty sitting in the chamber. my rounds are at 29.3 mm OAL, the same as factory ammo, and the bought reloads i checked were 28.7 mm and they ran perfectly, so i think it is safe to say length is not the issue. Also i have shot factory ammo through the gun and it ran well. I am almost certain it has to do with excessive pressure, not that there are signs on the brass of such pressure, but i did experience primer flow when i shot the gun. As for the magazines i would think that if those were the problem then i would have more or less consistent jams on every stage, but i dont. some stages run smoothly and some turn into a jamming nightmare.

[Scootertheshooter]

If I had to make a guess the ejector need to be tuned

[superdude]

It's not clear that your OAL is correct. Each bullet nose profile is different, and therefore the OAL can be different. You can't just measure a factory round, or any other, and use that as your guide for the correct OAL. That's not how it works.

You write "i remove any rounds that do not sit properly or have difficulty sitting in the chamber." This suggests that some rounds are not at the proper OAL. If they were at the proper OAL, all the round would properly fit in the chamber. What do you mean by " rounds that do not sit properly or have difficulty sitting in the chamber. "?? How do they not sit properly or have difficulty sitting??

What bullet are you using? Can you take a picture or direct us to a picture on the internet?

It's also not clear what you mean by " failure to feed (out of battery)". Please describe that in more detail. Pictures would be very helpful.

Edited February 13, 2015 by superdude

[Hi-Power Jack]

I get jams, specifically failure to feed (out of battery) and failure to extract.

My OAL is correct for the gun and all rounds cycle smoothly.

Jim, be helpful if you further defined the two types of jams

you're getting .... More details would make it easier to

diagnose the problem.

OAL is not "correct" or "incorrect" for A GUN, but for each

type bullet in your gun.

You mention that the "rounds cycle smoothly", but they

"fail to feed". I'm not really sure how that's possible - it

seems to me that if they cycle smoothly, they are feeding?

Little more detail would be very helpful ... Let's try to

solve this problem so you can go on to enjoy shooting again.

[Jimboajubejube]

It's not clear that your OAL is correct. Each bullet nose profile is different, and therefore the OAL can be different. You can't just measure a factory round, or any other, and use that as your guide for the correct OAL. That's not how it works.

You write "i remove any rounds that do not sit properly or have difficulty sitting in the chamber." This suggests that some rounds are not at the proper OAL. If they were at the proper OAL, all the round would properly fit in the chamber. What do you mean by " rounds that do not sit properly or have difficulty sitting in the chamber. "?? How do they not sit properly or have difficulty sitting??

What bullet are you using? Can you take a picture or direct us to a picture on the internet?

It's also not clear what you mean by " failure to feed (out of battery)". Please describe that in more detail. Pictures would be very helpful.

i almost never have any rounds that i need to remove when i drop the rounds into the chamber. ALL the rounds pass the plunk test. What i mean by not sitting properly is when i drop the rounds into the barrel and they do not seat properly i.e. sit flush in the chamber. They stick out. I only do this as an added precaution, all my rounds fit the chamber perfectly. I have measured, using a bore rod, what the max overall length for my gun would be, 31.7 mm.

"You can't just measure a factory round, or any other, and use that as your guide for the correct OAL. That's not how it works".

I know that you dont just use factory ammo OAL and reload with that. What i did was take some rounds loaded at 28.7 mm, 29 mm and 29.3 mm (i worked my length upto factory round length). I cycled these rounds through the gun and the smoothest, in my opinion, was the 29.3 mm OAL.

the failure to feed jam that i get is very similar to this, note this is not my gun http://i55.tinypic.com/2lbls0m.jpg

The second jam is a failure to extract http://i56.tinypic.com/wtsrrd.jpg(again not my gun)

I also tend to get a Jam where the bullet does this http://s968.photobucket.com/user/kiin61/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpse53d0b5a.jpg.html(not my gun)

also, when you have a failure to feed, the gun is said to be 'out of battery', here is my reference http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=485

The rounds i use are CMJ Restrike 9mmP 124gr RN.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Jimboajubejube

[superdude]

It's not clear that your OAL is correct. Each bullet nose profile is different, and therefore the OAL can be different. You can't just measure a factory round, or any other, and use that as your guide for the correct OAL. That's not how it works.

You write "i remove any rounds that do not sit properly or have difficulty sitting in the chamber." This suggests that some rounds are not at the proper OAL. If they were at the proper OAL, all the round would properly fit in the chamber. What do you mean by " rounds that do not sit properly or have difficulty sitting in the chamber. "?? How do they not sit properly or have difficulty sitting??

What bullet are you using? Can you take a picture or direct us to a picture on the internet?

It's also not clear what you mean by " failure to feed (out of battery)". Please describe that in more detail. Pictures would be very helpful.

i almost never have any rounds that i need to remove when i drop the rounds into the chamber. ALL the rounds pass the plunk test. These two statements contradict each other.

What i mean by not sitting properly is when i drop the rounds into the barrel and they do not seat properly i.e. sit flush in the chamber. They stick out. I only do this as an added precaution, all my rounds fit the chamber perfectly. Again, these statements contradict each other. If all the rounds fit the chamber perfectly, they would all seat properly and none would stick out. If they stick out, either the case is bulged and they wont fit the chamber or the chamber is too tight and needs to be reamed, or the bullet is seated too long and is touching the riflings before it has fully seated. I have measured, using a bore rod, what the max overall length for my gun would be, 31.7 mm.

"You can't just measure a factory round, or any other, and use that as your guide for the correct OAL. That's not how it works".

I know that you dont just use factory ammo OAL and reload with that. What i did was take some rounds loaded at 28.7 mm, 29 mm and 29.3 mm (i worked my length upto factory round length). I cycled these rounds through the gun and the smoothest, in my opinion, was the 29.3 mm OAL. Reliable cycling is different than "correct OAL". The correct overall length means that the round fits properly in the magazine and chamber.

the failure to feed jam that i get is very similar to this, note this is not my gun http://i55.tinypic.com/2lbls0m.jpg This is a 3-point jam. There are several possible causes for this type of malfunction. OAL too short, sluggish slide movement, gun doesn't like the bullet profile and so on.

The second jam is a failure to extract http://i56.tinypic.com/wtsrrd.jpg(again not my gun) This is usually cause by weak extractor tension or a rough chamber.

I also tend to get a Jam where the bullet does this http://s968.photobucket.com/user/kiin61/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpse53d0b5a.jpg.html(not my gun) Here the bullet nose has stuck on the feed ramp. Several possible causes here, too. Soft bullets (plated, swaged), rough feed ramp. Weak recoil spring. Weak recoil impulse. Excessive nosedive.

also, when you have a failure to feed, the gun is said to be 'out of battery', here is my reference http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=485

The rounds i use are CMJ Restrike 9mmP 124gr RN.

Okay, we're getting a handle on the problems. Thank you for the more detailed explanation and pictures. They help a lot in diagnosing problems.

You've got problems with the gun/ammo, and they are very frustrating. Many of us have had the same issues and understand your pain.

These are some of my thoughts based on the wide range of problems you see. These are just thoughts, nothing definitive.

A stronger recoil impulse might aid some of the feeding problems. What velocity does your load produce?

Is the gun new? Maybe it needs a little more break-in time for things to smooth out.

The extraction failures or most likely due to weak extractor tension, and a damaged extractor hook will do the same. A rough chamber can produce extraction problems as well.

You bullets sound like they are plated, correct? Any chance you can try some true FMJ bullets? Plated bullets are soft and can produce feed problems like you see. A hard FMJ bullet bounces off surfaces much better.

Does your feed ramp have rough spots? Has it been polished?

Do your nosedive-like jams only occur when the magazine is full?

Other members will come along with their thoughts and suggestions. Hang in there. we'll try to help.

[Jimboajubejube]

A stronger recoil impulse might aid some of the feeding problems. What velocity does your load produce?

- last time i used a chrono the power factor I had was 125 power factor, can't remember the velocity.

Is the gun new? Maybe it needs a little more break-in time for things to smooth out.

- gun is not new, had it for nearly 3 years, 2 of which have been competitive years, and lots of rounds have been through the gun.

You bullets sound like they are plated, correct? Any chance you can try some true FMJ bullets? Plated bullets are soft and can produce feed problems like you see. A hard FMJ bullet bounces off surfaces much better.

- will give that a try. Although I will soon be using an STI Trubor in the open division and i will be using the same bullets.

Does your feed ramp have rough spots? Has it been polished?

- no it does not have rough spots.

Do your nosedive-like jams only occur when the magazine is full?

- yes they do, it seems that in between shooting stages if i keep the magazine loaded i tend to get jams, although not always. The mag takes 18 rounds but now i only put in 17

Edited February 13, 2015 by Jimboajubejube

[Jimboajubejube]

I must say that i think the jams are most likely caused by the ammo. I have had the gun checked and the mags checked.i have corrected the mistakes i used to make and these were:

1) I was loading the rounds too short, 27.8 mm. I increased them to 28.5 mm then to 28.8 mm and now to 29.3mm. this definitely reduced jams.

2) I was crimping the bullet way too hard, now i just get rid of the belling.

3) The rounds were not factoring so i had to increase the powder to factor.

4) i was not removing the lube off the bullets after they went through the press, so the bullets were sticky.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Jimboajubejube

[Rob Tompkins]

Since the BUL M5 is a 1911 clone even a 29.3mm OAL may not be long enough - depending on the bullet profile. Some 9mm 1911's run fine with SAMMI spec lengh ammo, some not. Trunicated Cone's can be problamatic in 1911. You might try longer OALs.

Most factory 9mm ammo runs at a 135PF or higher and NATO spec 9mm can be hotter still. If the gun has springs designed for running NATO spec ammo a min power factor load of 125PF might not have enought energy for reliable operation. You stated factory ammo runs fine but reloads don't, they may be underpowered or your gun is over sprung for light loads.

[Jimboajubejube]

I was running a really hot load, at one point the load was hotter than minor power factor. I think it is OAL that is messing me around. i was factoring at 4.4 gr, and i increased it to 4.7 gr. now i am lightening the load back to 4.4 gr

Edited February 13, 2015 by Jimboajubejube

[Rob Tompkins]

I was running a really hot load, at one point the load was hotter than minor power factor. I think it is OAL that is messing me around. i was factoring at 4.4 gr, and i increased it to 4.7 gr. now i am lightening the load back to 4.4 gr

Factory ammo is hotter than minor PF. Typical is 140-145, NATO spec and +P can be up to 150-155. Most shooters I know run 130-135 for relaible operation and to insure they dont go sub-minor at the chrono stage. At 125 your reloads are underpowerd.

[b1gcountry]

I was starting to think maybe the lead in front of the crimp was being deformed in some way. It sounds like you may be getting a handle on things though

[Jimboajubejube]

Soo had an outdoor 8 stage shoot yesterday (very interesting), I have to say the reduced charge did help iron out some of the jams. I still had a failure to feed, although less frequent, and at one point all my rounds nose dived when i i had to start gun holstered and mags on belt. After that I cleaned the mags and for the last 3 stages i had no jams at all. It is now starting to seem that it could be the mags giving trouble and not the ammo anymore.

[superdude]

When your mags are fully loaded, is there is a gap between the top two rounds? See figure 3 here for an example of the gap: http://38super.net/Pages/Para%20Magazines.html

[Jimboajubejube]

yes i have seen that before in the mags... does that mean that the spring is binding at the bottom of the mag or something?

Edited February 17, 2015 by Jimboajubejube

[JMontie]

I had a similar problem with my gun. It a 38 super with ports and comp. Can't find the optimum powder right now. Was using HS6, had to work pass recommended loads. Made major, but was having failure to extract. Factory +P ammo was ok, got to looking and notice some case bulge and flattening of primers. I've pull projectiles from 400+ rounds and am starting over. Will have to shoot minor until I get the right powder.