Nick Weidhaas Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Took my rifle to the range today. I put a JP 20" upper, 1:8 twist med weight bbl, BC comp, on a new Armalite lower with a McCormick straight Super Match Trigger. Stock is an A2 and optics are a Trijicon Accupoint TR21r mounted in a Larue SPR mount. I have a set routine for barrel break-in, but decided to incorportate JP's break-in procedure with mine. I got to the range and cleaned the barrel as it had been test fired by JP. 1 wet patch of Butch's Bore Shine (BBS) 1 patch with a light coating of JB Bore Paste pushed through the barrel 5 times. 1 wet patch of BBS. Wet bronze brush with Butch's Bore Shine, back and forth 5 times. 1 wet patch of BBS. Dry patches continually pushed through bbl. until patch comes out clean. Above repeated every 10 rounds for a total of 60 rnds. All shooting was at 50 yards (zero distance) with Trijicon at 4X. 5 shot groups. 10 rnds of each load. Not a big test, but interesting none the less. *Clean* Winchester Factory 62gr. fmj, 1.5" groups . *Clean* Blackhills 60gr. AMAX, 3/4" groups. *Clean* Blackhills 69gr. Match HP, 1" groups. (Thought this load would have shot better.) *Clean* Blackills 77gr. Match HP, in both groups I put 4 rounds in a 1/4" with the 5th round opening it up to 1/2". Seems like this barrel likes the 77gr. loads . (Note I had a box of both BH blue and red and they both shot the same. ) *Clean* Function was flawless. Very happy with new rifle. Next range visit, (maybe tomorrow) I will start shooting some distance. Best, Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Nick, no 55 gr. nosler baltistic tip? should shoot about 1/3 inch w/ about 40 % less recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Benny - could you share yout thoughs on the 1/9 vs. 1/8 bbl, and how much of a compromise it is when you don't load the long heavy bullets in a 1/8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted February 8, 2005 Author Share Posted February 8, 2005 Benny- Thanks for the tip, I'll give them a try. So far, this 1:8 twist bbl. does not seem to really like the lighter bullets. I was hoping to find a 55 or 60gr. load that the gun liked that I could use for the close stuff and just run the 77's on the long stuff. The BH 60gr. AMAX load I shot has a ballistic tip. I generally find the bt bullets to be pretty accurate. We have used the 55gr. and 60gr. Hornady TAP load (ballistic tip) at work and it was real accurate out of our 1:9 16" carbines. I think the 77's are capable of all being put in the same hole with this rifle, but there is a recoil trade-off for sure. Rob- I choose the 1:8 so I could run the longer/heavier bullets if needed/wanted. The 1:8 should allow me to run everything from 55grs. and up, with a preference for 62gr. and up. 1:9 bbls will usually shoot the 55's well with some partial to bullet weights up to 69grs. Each bbl. is different and you have to find the bullet/load your gun likes. I am going to try the 55 BT as Benny recommended. I'm also going and give the BH 60gr. AMAX (BT) another try. Lighter weight bullets yield less felt recoil, but don't have the energy at the longer ranges. The heavier bullets also fair better in the wind. Trade-offs......... Best, Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Nick - please pass along any info. I have a JP with the same bbl and twist as yours which I will try as soon as I get a scope for it. I guess that means I need to get into .223 reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 I get 3/4 inch at 100 yards regularly with George's 69gr SMK recipe handloads with the same upper. I have shot less than that but I can't do so with any regularity. I am sure with practice I can get there though. Mine gobbles 69gr SMKs like they were candy. I am playing with loads for 55gr and 62gr cheapie bullets though for just casual playing and short-range hosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Nick, Don't get too caught up in the downrange energy and wind drift arguments with the 77's. Wind drift on the 77's vs. the 55's out to 300 are virtually identical. At 500 yards, there is only a few inches difference. You don't really start to reap the benefits of the 77's until you get out past 600. Very few 3-gun matches will have targets anywhere close to this distance. Most long range shots will be in the 300-400 yard range. As for downrange energy (or momentum), that only matters if you have to knock down steel. Most of the longer range steel targets are flashing type targets that don't require you to actually push over the steel. This is where a good match scouting report is essential. It's always good to have a heavyweight load ready to go. I usually have bring about 50 rounds of my heavyweight loads to a match, but I only use them to meet a specific match requirement. In the end, take all the factors into consideration when selecting a base load (Accuracy, recoil, ballistics, cost, etc.) Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Nosler Ballistictips 55 gr. (orange tip) & 25.0 gr. of H335 = 5/8" groups @ 100 yds using similar set up (1:8 JP CTR02 upper & Trijicon TR21R). No problems wacking steel at 350-400 yds with 55 gr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Try the 50 gr. V-Max over 26 to 27 grs. of Varget. Out of my 1 in 7 twist they go into 1/2" @ 100 and get there fast. This bullet seems to shoot well in anything from 1 in 12 to 1 in 7. LOL Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 WOW the Bear and I agree!!! I have even dispensed with having any "heavy" bullets at all. 55s have knocked over any and all I have pointed them at, and... well...... actually hit. . Even La Rue targets at the 400 yard range. At the Arkansas 3-gun this year they had some real heavy 12" plates and even those went right over at 300 or so. I just don't see the use of spending that much on a bullet for this game. I like the Nosler bullet that Pacman likes and have had great luck with the Sierra Blitzking in 55. You can get them fairly cheep in bulk packs. I tend to stay away from the VMax bullets, as they are flat based. I have never seen Broncho have any problem with steel either and his are "lighter" yet and flat based, so it may just be personal preferance. KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 All things equal rate of twist will be small a factor especially in the 1/7.1/8.1/9 range. More important is how chamber throat is cut, how much freespace, forcing cone etc. Most of the time if you roll your own changing the overall length will have greatess impact when using a good bullet. Then after you find a happy spot for that, then velocity tweaking will work with barrel harmonics. I wouldn't try much until a couple hundreds are through it. Make sure you use your JB/Kroil and don't let a carbon ring build up just in front of the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 All good info and very helpful everyone. I appreciate the input. Learn something new every day as they say..... Today I was back at the range to finish breaking in the barrel. Shot at 100 yards to finish this task and got similar results as the the day before at 50 yards. 1/2" groups were the norm with the 77's. The BH 60 BT's were in the 1.25" range. The 69's about the same. I think if I had a different optic (cross hair and more magnfication) I could squeez out some more accuracy, but the 4X and triangle in the Trijicon are not made for precision. I'm happy thus far, just wish I had a lighter bullet that shot decent and about the same poi as the 77's (I guy can wish can''t he ). The point of impact was considerably different with all three loads. I did not have any 55's, so I will gather some and test later. I don't reload rifle, so I am limited to finding a decent lighter factory load that will hopefully do better than 1moa (although in reality, 1moa would be fine I guess). I just like to see those little groups. I'm thinking I should have gone with a 1:9 twist. Hmmm. Well I guess I got what I got. I think I should be able to find something. If all else fails, I'll have to start reloading rifle. Not my favorite thing to do. Thanks again, N- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Bennie, Kurt and Erik, Of course Mike Voigt won the Open 3 gun Nationals shooting 75 gr Hornady HPBTs so I guess they don't kick that much... (Although I just bought 1000 55 gr Nosler 55s myself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisgahrifle Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 As a caveat, I'm pretty new to three gun. BUT- I do have an A2 set up for service rifle. Not being able to reload right now I had to look up a factory load for it. After trying several different offerings from Federal and Winchester, I tried out Hornady's 55 gr. Moly V-max and stopped. I zeroed at 25 and consistently got one ragged hole. Saturday I finally got out to a decent 200 yd range and managed to group them in about 1/2" to 5/8" (over irons, with witnesses!). They're a little pricey at about $12 a box, but worth every dime. As another caveat, I was shooting a floated 1/9, so your results may differ. This AR is my first .223 as I grew up on '06s, so I can't tell you if felt recoil is greater than the heavier bullets or no. I can tell you that you realize how much the AR spoils the sh** out of you when you pick up your Springfield to zero IT at 200 with that hot new game load. You certainly don't get $@#(*!*# 1/2" groups! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 As a caveat, I'm pretty new to three gun. BUT-...Saturday I finally got out to a decent 200 yd range and managed to group them in about 1/2" to 5/8" (over irons, with witnesses!). ... 5/8" @ 200 yds using iron sights You must have eyes of an eagle. I need the name of your eye doctor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisgahrifle Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 As a caveat, I'm pretty new to three gun. BUT-...Saturday I finally got out to a decent 200 yd range and managed to group them in about 1/2" to 5/8" (over irons, with witnesses!). ... 5/8" @ 200 yds using iron sights You must have eyes of an eagle. I need the name of your eye doctor I think it actually suprised me more than anyone. That was the first time I'd shot over 50 yds. since I got contacts. The doc said I was clsoe to 20/10 RE with a tinge of astigmatism that was to slight to get out with contacts, but he could get me closer with glasses- my next option. I don't think it's so much a matter of eyes as it is stability and repeatability. I'll admit I was sitting, not standing, at 200. And now that my sling's finally stretched as far as it's going to stretch, the platform's getting pretty solid. I can't wait to see what happens when I can finally afford a real shooting coat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Kurtm, I didn't intend to imply that I used 50 gr. bullets for steel, just an option for close paper out to 100 yd. I like my 77's for anything past 100 simply because I know where they hit. I don't reload for hoser targets just use a reliable and inexpensive 55 gr. round, currently using some found at a gun show for $120/K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Kelly: First a Benelli and now 55 grs...what is happening in this world!! As an aside, and this in no way impinges on the reputatin of Black Hills, but I have NEVER been able to get good groups with thier light or medium weight bullets. The 77 I tried worked well and this was just to see if they would work in a 1X9 barrel and they did, but man that cost toooooooo much!! NEVER got good groups with the 68s, 69,s, or 60s, thier 55gr soft point was okay, but not the rest! My reload with a 69gr bullet will go just under an inch at 200 in my JP rifle, and just over 1.25 in the iron sight gun. The 69gr BH went into a nice 3.5" group out of the JP and about the same for the iron. 68s were the very worst. 8" groups out of the JP and Iron sight rifle. YUCK!! Another aside, the most accurate AR I ever saw was a 1X7 twist shoting a 52gr MK Sierra bullet, so I wouldn't say you picked the wrong twist.....like Bear says....it ain't wrong, its just different!! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Kelly, I, personally, do not find any real difference in recoil between the 75's & 55's, but some shooters are more sensitive to it. I guess I have a little too much girth for either round to push me around much. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Kurt loading 69s!!! They must have mixed up our orders at the bullet factory. I can feel the difference between 75 and 55s but that don't mean I shoot the 55s any faster. Erik, that's not girth, it's an internal compensator. My JP with a 1 in 9 seems to shoot 69 Noslers the best so far. (with AA2230C) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 Kellyn- Internal Compensator I have one of those. Now I know those 77's won't be able to push me around Thanks again for the imput. Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted April 2, 2005 Author Share Posted April 2, 2005 As a follow-up to my original post, I finially got some Ultramax 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip ammo and I am very impressed. Stuff shoots as well as the 77gr. BH and as Benny said, with much less recoil. Found my load. Thanks for the help. Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmfield Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 As a follow-up to my original post, I finially got some Ultramax 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip ammo and I am very impressed. Stuff shoots as well as the 77gr. BH and as Benny said, with much less recoil. Found my load. Thanks for the help. Nick- <{POST_SNAPBACK}> At greater than 300 yards and/or in a good stiff crosswind, you'll appreciate the 77's. Since most matches these days don't go much past 300, their benefits seldom come into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted April 4, 2005 Author Share Posted April 4, 2005 As a follow-up to my original post, I finially got some Ultramax 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip ammo and I am very impressed. Stuff shoots as well as the 77gr. BH and as Benny said, with much less recoil. Found my load. Thanks for the help. Nick- <{POST_SNAPBACK}> At greater than 300 yards and/or in a good stiff crosswind, you'll appreciate the 77's. Since most matches these days don't go much past 300, their benefits seldom come into play. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> rmfield- That was my plan, 55's out to 300 and 77's beyound that. Thanks, Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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