Upgrade? M&P to...

[txolds442]

Hey everyone, I've been shooting USPSA and 3 gun for about a year now with an M&P pro .40. I've done pretty much everything to it that I can (Apex FSS, SSS magwell, tungsten guiderod, Dawson sights, etc.) like that Johnny Cash song "one piece at a time..." Although, she's treated me well, there's still something left to be desired. As I quickly learned that this is a pay to play sport, I would love to get into a Benny or Cheely and call it a day, that’s just not in the cards for a loooong while (engagement rings, student loans, house, you know all the stuff that gets in the way of shooting). I've read a lot and certainly used the search function here a time or two, but I would like some direction from the veterans or those in the know.

I've been eyeing the CZ Tactical Sport in .40 due to reviews and cost. Would this be worth selling the m&p and going to the CZ? Unfortunately, I don’t know anyone or have access to a shop that has one to even hold (south Texas, if you’re thinking San Antonio or Corpus, keep going and I'll see ya in a few hours). Any alternatives or feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Eddie.

[TonytheTiger]

The grip diameter on the TS is a bit big, it's something you can get used to or modify if you like. That said the gun has has a ridiculous bang for your buck factor! I like M&P's well enough but for me there's no comparison, the trigger alone is is worth the switch. I'm sure there are better guns out there, but none even close to the price range. This opinion is free of charge though, that may be all its worth.

Edited December 29, 2014 by TonytheTiger

[thermobollocks]

As I quickly learned that this is a pay to play sport

.

It really isn't. Are you able to describe specific deficiencies inherent to the platform that have a negative effect on you at your skill level? I've found that the things the gun does are generally of interest mostly in classifiers -- production vs. limited reloads, class for class, aren't too different. Splits aren't too different, nor are they where most of your effort's going to be on a field course. There are quite few things most shooters can work on before the platform ever enters into the equation. If money is an issue, why not keep saving up for something excellent and exercise your current platform as hard as you can to get the highest return?

[txolds442]

Great answer and question. This is one of the options, holding on to the m&p longer. There are two "issues" off the top of my head, that I wouldn’t necessarily call deficiencies. Installing the Apex FSS was hands down the best thing that could have done to that firearm, it removed a majority of pre-travel and over-travel and inherent "slop", as well as it could have. That being said, at times, I find myself compressing the trigger for a follow up shots before the trigger has completely reset itself, which could be a mix of haste and a longer striker fired reset. Second thing is balance and weight, the tungsten guide rod has added a small amount of weight in the front of weapon, which has helped, but I find more consistency and fluid motion firing and transitioning with heavier handgun. For me, weight and balance go hand in hand, considering the weight is in the right places.

I'm competing against guys running the high dollar guns, which I think is a good thing because it has forced me to focus heavily on draw stroke, keeping everything in my work space, shooting on the move and over all technique. On good days, I can hang with B class shooters (not beat, but hang...by a thread). I love shooting with folks that are better than me because I want to learn and I have a whoooole lot of learning to do. I whole heartedly agree that fundamentals, practice and consistency are the keys to success in action shooting sports, but I’m hoping something with a single stage trigger and a little more heft will give me a slight push, even if it’s simply a mental (I was a baseball player and we're the most superstitious around). That being said, you may be right about keeping the current platform. I appreciate your feedback.

[steviesterno]

i go through the same thought process almost every few weeks. then I am politely reminded by a fellow good but not world class shooter, that I suck. I don't, but until I'm in the top 10% of shooters, and losing by fractions of a second, it's not worth it to upgrade. the difference between a set up M&P and a set up custom 2011 is close to $2k, which is my whole shooting budget for a while. I have a ton of other things that would make a much better difference in my shooting, in this case 3 gun. I could lose weight, sprint faster, work on dry fire, reload more, practice drills, get better at memorizing stages, work on trigger control, etc etc etc.

It's fun to spend the money and I will own a 2011 in 9mm, but not because it will make me better. because I want it.

Still paying on the same list of things as you, but we closed on the house this october and the wedding is March, so until those are taken care of, not the most important thing in the world.

[txolds442]

First, congratulations on your upcoming wedding and your new home. I appreciate the feed back. I sympathize with you on the idea popping back up every few weeks, this is first time I've vocalized it. I had a feeling what the suggestions would be, i guess i just wanted some outside perspective.

[Nevadazielmeister]

I am sorry, but I disagree with most of the people posting. The whole, "the tool will not make me a better shooter or better competitor" is bullshit. It will. The CZ Tactical Sport is way better than the M&P, hands down.

I say, if you want to get that firearm, get it! Customize it to where you feel SUPER comfortable with it. You will shoot more and well… what do you know.. you will do better.

With tons of experience in the precision rifle world, I see this all of the time. People trying to justify their cheap equipment to do just as much as the top level shooters. It just never happens. You are only as good as your equipment. If the equipment is the limiting factor, then you will always wonder how good you can be.

[RJH]

Look for a used para 16-40. Excellent value usually, and defiantly several steps above plastic. I have to agree a better gun makes life easier and if you are doing this for fun why not get the best you can. While the para is not an SVI they may be the one of the better values out there.

[TonytheTiger]

I'm right in between Nevadazielmeister and the "run the gun you have" crowd. I personally can't stand Glocks and I do not shoot them well. But watching Rob Vogel videos proves that practice CAN trump a lot of equipment deficiencies. But shoot a TS or a gun with a similar trigger vs. say an M&P at a 10" plate at 50yds. I will bet money that the 2lb trigger will pay for itself right there. I put a ton of work into shooting my FNX and had gotten decent with it but I probably hadn't hit it's performance ceiling. A week after buying my TS I was light years ahead of my FN shooting abilities. If I can pay $1100 and have a gun that gives an immediate performance boost and one that I'll probably never be able to outshoot, why wouldn't I?

[steviesterno]

long range is a different animal. an m&p can shoot the same targets a 2011 can since the distance are all pretty close.

I'm not against the nicer gear. I'm just saying it's not as much about the gear as it Is the shooter. I consistantly beat a guy running a beautiful open limcat when I shoot My aging single stack. granted, I have almost a 40 year age advantage, but his is not a magic laser blaster, despite having more money in mags than I do in a les Baer.

shoot and train UNTILL it's the gun holding you back. then upgrade

[wgj3]

Im going back to my M&P's this year. Been running a slick 6" .40 2011 for a couple years now, but I've figured out that with a few atypical mods I can shoot the M&P's just as well. Plus, I can have one in 9mm(3gun) and one in .40(uspsa) for about the same coin as a 2011 in either caliber.

[thermobollocks]

I am sorry, but I disagree with most of the people posting. The whole, "the tool will not make me a better shooter or better competitor" is bullshit. It will. The CZ Tactical Sport is way better than the M&P, hands down.

I say, if you want to get that firearm, get it! Customize it to where you feel SUPER comfortable with it. You will shoot more and well… what do you know.. you will do better.

With tons of experience in the precision rifle world, I see this all of the time. People trying to justify their cheap equipment to do just as much as the top level shooters. It just never happens. You are only as good as your equipment. If the equipment is the limiting factor, then you will always wonder how good you can be.

Precision rifle is a hugely different game from action pistol. Precision rifle gives huge gains from fit of the chassis to the shooter's body, clarity and repeatability of glass, and chambering/handload considerations that do not translate to anything handgun-related, and which cost a boatload of money initially and per-round. Your average Joe B-class isn't going to gain a thing outside of underwear tightness putting down for a CZ/S_I, and he's probably going to be pissed if he expects it to be as easy to maintain and feed as the old tupperware.

If OP is asking for what gun is truly better, this thread will wind up getting locked. If OP is asking what gun he will like more, it could very well be a pre-war 1911 for reasons unrelated to how it shoots. If OP is asking what kind of improvement he can expect changing platforms, if he gets along with the M&P, it's going to be far more related to the effort he puts into practice.

If you go and buy an expensive thing based on rumors of how much better it is, it's going to be a total crapshoot whether you get what you think you're paying for. You have to be able to make use of all the things you're getting.

That's why I ask if OP can identify deficiencies with his current platform relative to how he shoots it. A faster-cycling slide isn't going to help a shooter who struggles to track the sights during recoil in the first place, or who hasn't worked up the grip strength to take the beating those light springs dish out. Meticulous barrel to slide fit isn't going to help a shooter who struggles to hold the A-zone at 15 yards.

Great answer and question. This is one of the options, holding on to the m&p longer. There are two "issues" off the top of my head, that I wouldn’t necessarily call deficiencies. Installing the Apex FSS was hands down the best thing that could have done to that firearm, it removed a majority of pre-travel and over-travel and inherent "slop", as well as it could have. That being said, at times, I find myself compressing the trigger for a follow up shots before the trigger has completely reset itself, which could be a mix of haste and a longer striker fired reset. Second thing is balance and weight, the tungsten guide rod has added a small amount of weight in the front of weapon, which has helped, but I find more consistency and fluid motion firing and transitioning with heavier handgun. For me, weight and balance go hand in hand, considering the weight is in the right places.

I have the same problem with the FSS myself. From what I can tell, it's compatible with their Reset Assist Mechanism, which with the Production-legal trigger, makes the reset extremely palpable, almost forcible. But, it's still never going to be like a nice 2# single action trigger. If you think the trigger's a limiting factor where it is, then yeah, you'd likely benefit from a nice SAO trigger. Same deal for the weight. I threw the biggest brass magwell SSS makes on mine, and it's still not got the same heft as my 1911. The TS is probably a good option, but you might check with some TS owners about long term maintenance and the like. 2011s are nice (and simultaneously terrifying) because there's a bajillion parts from a bajillion manufacturers and piles of smiths willing to take your money and do unholy things with an Arkansas stone and some chicken bones.

[MarkCO]

Go to the range with someone that has the gun you want and run some drills. See what the time and hits tell you. Different guns fit people well, different. If you are C class, you are chasing want and perception, not actual performance.

Having run drills with different platforms and looking at scores, the difference is minimal. An honest GM will tell you that the difference between an SVI tuned to his specs and a stock Glock is maybe 10%, less on most courses. A tuned up M&P has a smaller gap. I spent some time with 2011s, M&Ps, and CZs after I made A with a Glock. I shot the M&Ps best and they fit me well, so I switched. Take a test drive and rely understand a platform switch before you do it.

Edited December 30, 2014 by MarkCO

[Shmella]

I figured i would eventually get a 2011 so i went from an m&p straight to a 2011 in a year. my theory is to let my skill level catch-up and develop to match the gun that I will most likely end up with after many years of switching platforms. all the tops shoot them for a reason, and the design has been tried and true.

[MarkCO]

Miculek, Vogel, Graufel don't shoot 2011s, they are okay...

[steviesterno]

another thing to consider is how serious about 3 guns are you? because that sport will have multiple abandons, and it is a bit quicker to throw a striker fired gun down than rack and clear a 2011, especially if you're worried about the safety.

also not sure if you care, but 3 gun is way more demanding on gear. going prone with your pistol holstered, running into stuff, wapping it with your buttstock of another gun if you're not paying attention, abandoning it on the clock. 3 gun will beat up the pistol. Personally, I don't care because I see guns (even at 2k) as tools, plus I think worn guns look better than safe queens. But I have a lot less hesitation throwing an M&P in a bucket full of God knows what compared to the full custom 6" 2011 I used to.

[Quack]

Buying guns is fun, BUT you have to find a gun that you work with best. In a match in October, a friend shot his Legion 9mm 2011 in the morning, and in the afternoon he shot my modified G34 (both in Limited minor). He actually shot the G34 better and is planning to buy it from me. The difference in his scores was ~6%.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Quack

[TonytheTiger]

Thermobollocks makes a good point that's often overlooked. With dedicated race guns often comes race responsibility. The TS is not a zero maintenance gun like most polymer duty guns are. You will spend time tinkering with small parts to fix little things that aren't broken, and you will want to have a routine spring/miscellaneous parts replacement schedule. This bothers some people, but not me. My previous hobby was go kart racing and anyone who plays in motorsports will agree that you'll spend more time off track keeping everything ship shape and weeding out tiny deficiencies that may or may not effect performance than you will actually racing. I think of dedicated competition guns with the exact same mindset.

[MarkCO]

Thermobollocks makes a good point that's often overlooked. With dedicated race guns often comes race responsibility. The TS is not a zero maintenance gun like most polymer duty guns are. You will spend time tinkering with small parts to fix little things that aren't broken, and you will want to have a routine spring/miscellaneous parts replacement schedule. This bothers some people, but not me. My previous hobby was go kart racing and anyone who plays in motorsports will agree that you'll spend more time off track keeping everything ship shape and weeding out tiny deficiencies that may or may not effect performance than you will actually racing. I think of dedicated competition guns with the exact same mindset.

And when I decided to stop tinkering with "competition" guns and just shoot ones that are 100% reliable with just an annual spring change, my scores improved.

[Camazama]

MarkCO - what changes have you made to your M&P?

[MarkCO]

MarkCO - what changes have you made to your M&P?

Just a great trigger job done by a local shooter, and some grip tape. I made a conscious decision to NOT work on my own M&P.

[Camazama]

Thanks Mark. I'm looking a purchasing another M&P for 3 gun, and was curious what you had done to yours. I have my M&P9 for USPSA Production and M&P40 for Limited.

[TonytheTiger]

Just one more great thing about 3 gun Mark. We each get to play with whichever guns work best for us! Be that an M&P or a high end 2011, there's usually no COF's that make any guns obsolete.

[MarkCO]

Just one more great thing about 3 gun Mark. We each get to play with whichever guns work best for us! Be that an M&P or a high end 2011, there's usually no COF's that make any guns obsolete.

Yep. My M&P is USPSA production legal and I shoot it in Limited Minor, Production and 3Gun. Just have some TTI basepads as the difference to get me 23 rounds. Never felt handicapped by the gun in any manner.

[txolds442]

Wow, I logged on and was overwhelmed by responses. Thank you everyone for taking the time to provide feedback and different perspectives. I do use my m&p pro .40 for both uspsa limited and 3gun.