The draw...

[Ron Ankeny]

When I first started shooting USPSA my draw was pretty darn slow. I have done a lot of work on my draw and sub one second draws at around 7 yards are now a piece of cake. In IDPA I can draw from concealment and shoot 2 in the down zero zone in well under 2 seconds (at five yards) without a problem.

Now that I have a respectable draw, I wonder if it is really all that necessary. Sure, in a speed shoot or on a classifier a quick draw is really nice and you need it to make Master, but how fast is fast enough on a day to day basis for "general" IPSC shooting?

I had this same little conversation with bonedaddy and it seems to me that a fast draw on a 20-24 round field course isn't all that important. In fact, the best runs that I have ever had were when my draw was solid, fluid, and relaxed enough to allow me to begin and sustain a fairly rapid rate of fire. The key concept is "sustain". If I draw too fast (.90 or less), the first target gets hammered in a heartbeat, but I feel tense transitioning to the second target and I don't always call the shots the way I should.

I am really curious. What would be the time for a typical master class draw on a field course starting on say an 8 yard target? I'll bet it isn't sub one second, or is it?

I hope I don't sound too horribly ignorant...but if the shoe fits I'll wear it.

[Flexmoney]

Ron,

Killer timing.  I was wondering the same thing recently.  I got the chance to talk about this with (Nationals Range Master) Arnie Christianson.  He came to Ohio to teach an RO class.  I was his ride to and from the airport.  

I had noticed, on some of the old Nationals tapes, that the super-squad didn't seem to be truely smokin' with their draw speed.  Arnie said that he had run the super-squad on a stage in the past.  Being curious, he checked their first shot times.  He said they didn't come up under a second.  Seems they just didn't want to blow that first shot by going all out.

The first two names that came to mind (to me) were Sam and Bryant.  I know these two can, and have, smoked the draw.  Bryant has pulled .85 or better in matches.

Your thoughts on tension are interesting.  Food for thought.

[BSeevers]

It depends on the target( 8 yards open target should be sub 1 sec, see below why match winner could be a awful 1.09 drawer) but too many new shooters get hung up on quick draw McGraw practice. If you want to shoot at high levels you must be able to pull off a sub 1 sec draw on demand. I never look at my timer in a match but I think I am around 1.0X most of the time. Couple matches ago the RO goes Gee he did a .95 draw! It was a 3 target open array at 7 yards. I wish he would have looked at the splits. Pretty sure they were .14 or less. Thats where some speed is. Cut a tenth off draw cut a tenth off of each target. Which one is going to give you more at the end?  14 targets x .1 sec = 1.4 sec Hmm

[shred]

Todd has a story that I might have posted before about how one stage at some major match, the super-squad was jacking with each other about how fast they could shoot the first targets.. Max won the fast-draw with a .7 or .8, but Todd was ahead after two targets on transitions, even with a .9-something draw.

Look at the RG nationals.. how many draws are there in the entire match? 15?  Now go look at the Steel Challenge.

[ErikW]

I'd say it's pretty damned important on a stage like this.

2002 US Factory Gun Nationals

Stage 5 Drop Out

Place   Name   No.   Class   Division   Points   Penalties   Time   Hit Factor   Stage Pts   Stage %  

1 robert leatham  83 GM Limited 10 30 0 3.36 8.9286 30.0000 100.00%

2 ron E avery      8  U Limited 10 30 0 3.64 8.2418 27.6924 92.31%

3 phil strader   106 GM Limited 10 29 0 3.60 8.0556 27.0667 90.22%

4 jake kempton    35  M Limited 10 30 0 3.83 7.8329 26.3185 87.73%

5 steve marsden  143  A Limited 10 28 0 3.59 7.7994 26.2059 87.35%

6 Adam popplewell 93 GM Limited 10 27 0 3.47 7.7810 26.1441 87.15%

7 jamie craig    284  U Limited 10 29 0 3.83 7.5718 25.4412 84.80%

8 jerry barnhart  55  U Limited 10 29 0 3.92 7.3980 24.8572 82.86%

9 erik warren    208  A Limited 10 30 0 4.06 7.3892 24.8276 82.76%

I got all As, I shot quick splits and transitions, but my draw sucked! This is where the big dogs need to bust out their .75-.85 draws. But in the end, I'm less than 6 match points down.

I always thought the draw was unimportant on the bigger field courses. But shaving a couple tenths will give you 2 or 3 more match points per stage. Not a big deal until you multiply it by 18 or 19 stages.

(Edited by Erik Warren at 3:39 pm on Aug. 7, 2002)

[sincityshooter]

Take a look again at the RG Nationals.  How many times do you simply draw your gun and start shooting?  It looks like there's only 3-4 stages.  It's tough to get a .8-.9 draw with a good grip, so if there's more than 2 shots before moving, then the splits suffer.  Why?  Your subconscience mind is aware of the bad grip which takes some focus away from shooting.  Even though I can draw in the .8's, I'm always looking at 1.2's in a match.  That first shot is the most important.  Todd J. mentioned this in a class I took a while ago.  Even though the top dogs can draw well below a second, most stages they will be as high as 1.4.  

[Shipster]

I agree with sincityshooter.  I know my practice draws are always faster then my match draws  For me at my level maximum CONTROL is slower.

I see this as a parallel to a golf drive.  Most Pro’s can drive the ball 300 plus yards, but control suffers.  That’s why you see them hitting the ball 250 to 275 “+ or -“ yards in tournaments because that’s where the control is.  

IMHO

[38supPat]

Lots of Todd qoutes, bear in mind that when he says the first shot counts and to make it perfect, he is still doing it well under a second. His table draws are under a second!

At the last Nationals where the new Safariland holster debuted, he hit a .75 draw at something like 8 to 10yds.

That said, consistancy is everything, matches aren't won by a .2 faster draw, they're lost by a blown draw.

[Shooter Grrl]

Let's do some math  Erik started to point it out, but never actually got the conclusion that will answer your question definitively....

If you are slower on every draw in the match - you are doing nothing but giving away match points!

Let's say of Erik's .70 seconds, .5 of it was the draw - over 20 stages that is 10 SECONDS over the entire match.

I don't know about you - but I don't have an extra 10 seconds to give away!!!!

On a typical Nationals stage - 1 second equals about 15 points... that's 150 match points you just "gave away" by drawing a half second slower.

(Edited by Shooter Grrl at 10:09 am on Aug. 8, 2002)

[shred]

Well, actually.. the average HHF for last years Open Nats was 9.75, so call it 10 points-per-second.

And I'm going to claim I might be as much as 0.3 slower on a draw vs speedsters in my class, so I'd be looking at giving away 6 seconds or 60 pts for a 20-draw match.  

While it's not something I'm keen to give up, it's the same as 4 misses or 20 D's (or, in my case, 8 flubbed draws)

In a related story, last year's Open was won with 1515 of the 1653 match points, so as long as it's not the same person quicker every time...

(Edited by shred at 9:44 am on Aug. 8, 2002)

[ErikW]

You're only giving away the tenths on each stage and shaving your hit factor and thus your match points. It's not the same as if you lost all that aggregate time on one stage. (Believe me, I know what it's like.)

It's like 3 match points per stage, 57 points at the FGN. Would've moved me up from 38th to 24th. Seems like a lot but I lost that much by f'ing up just two stages.

First I'll work on not f'ing up stages and losing 15-30 points each. When I can do that reliably, then I'll try to do sub-second draws on each stage and pick up 3 points each.

[Shipster]

I don't think anybody is arguing the fact that a slower draw is going to cost you points.  But a flubbed draw is going to cost you how many points, to reposition your grip and get your focus back?  That's where planning out your run on that COF is going to pay off.  If the first aray of targets is real close, out to 10 yards A's are still a pretty sure thing for most shooters even with a poor grip. I guess the answer is to play the game to the best of your abilities for that day.

The Shipster

[ErikW]

Funny, but my idea of the bad consequences of a rushed draw have to do with the sights, not my grip on the gun. Interesting how we have different views of what happens when draws go bad.

I wish I could say As were a sure thing out to 10 yards. Misses are entirely possible for me on the draw, even with a good grip.

(Edited by Erik Warren at 12:09 pm on Aug. 8, 2002)

[Shipster]

Eirk, Your kidding us about the misses, right?

The Shipster

[ErikW]

I shjt you not. I tend to shoot high left on the draw, sometimes way high, way left. As a matter of fact, that's probably where my first miss at the FGN went, on the target I was drawing to.

[Flexmoney]

A miss at 10 yards...a miss at 3 yards...happens all the time.

[Shipster]

That's Where I have to push my self.  I get so hung up on my A count that it's slowing me down, as a high C shooter trying to break into B.

My draws during matches usually are around 1.75.  I've been using a Dillon Master holster with my Kimber, just because I was being stuborn and not wanting to kick out the doe for a competition holster.  I broke down and bought a really nice second hand one from a BE forum member last week.  So I'll see what happens with my times.

The Shipster

[sincityshooter]

Back to an earlier post, I know that the top dogs can and will sometimes draw extremely fast in competition, but not always.  I'm sure that on a low hit factor stage 8.0 or less, they are more concerned with points which starts with the first shot.  I think that the draw does matter if you are having problems getting close to 1 sec during practice.  .2 to .3 every stage helps out a bunch.  However, I think your first shot should count... it might take .8 seconds or 1.4 seconds.  Call the shot

[mcoliver]

So Shipster, any improvement in your times with your comp gear?

[TMC]

big thread drift.. from Eric's post with Nationls scores

Jamie Craig, Ron Avery and Jerry B unclassified!? HUH??

[Flexmoney]

You must be talking about the Factory Gun Nationals.  Barnhart and the like haven't shot enough in the various divisions to have received a classifcation.  As a matter of fact, Barnhart has very few classifiers on record in any division.  Most of his scores come from his finish position in Major Matches.

Here are the Burner's classifiers:

http://uspsa.org/cgi-bin/lookup_class.cgi?number=L1107

(Edited by Flexmoney at 12:55 pm on Sep. 4, 2002)

[Shipster]

---

Quote: from mcoliver on 4:01 am on Sep. 4, 2002

So Shipster, any improvement in your times with your comp gear?

---

1.21 Average for 10 draws.  But I'll get faster.  The new holster is working great.

money well spent.

[mcoliver]

That's good to know.  I'll probably be doing the same soon. Be safe.

[Loves2Shoot]

Funny thing about the draw, I took a class from Frank Garcia and we all wanted to know (A -Gm shooters) how fast our draws needed to be to be a "top level" shooter. His response blew most all of away ".97-.98 10" target 10 yards like a clock." Most of us in the group can pull sub .9's 75% of the time. My personal best @ 3 yard is .72, but in this game what good is that really?

He said we all needed to slow down and call EVERY shot.

Getting a consistant first shoot and being relaxed (confident) through the whole stage seems to be better for my scores.

Also, I go real fast in practice and back it off a bit during a match, and I think the adrenaline makes up the difference because the times are about the same for me.

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

Interesting link that you provided. Can you imagine a 97.787 finish at the nationals flagged with an F because it is too low?