9MM MAJOR FLAT

[Shmella]

Ive read a lot of posts about 9major and different loads to achieve major with different bullet weights. with bbl holes and without, some say this is better than that and some loads result in being flatter or softer than others. anyone have any videos to compare "flatness" between loads? another thing ive seen is certain loads seem to work better at higher powerfactors. again looking to see some video to playback and see the real results. is it more of a feel thing and a video would almost look the same? im new to shooting open and have seen some pretty flat shooting guns at shoots and just started playing with different loads with my gun so im still trying to find something that i like. But I figured with the advance in phone cameras, somebody has to have video displaying how flat a gun shoots especially with slomo video being available to anyone with an iphone.

[Hi-Power Jack]

"Flat" generally refers to how much the dot moves under recoil.

Really truly flat would be similar to a .22 where the dot barely

moves.

I just tried my TruBor with the same bullets, cases & primers, but

5.0, 5.5, 6.0 and 6.5 grains of WAC - The less powder, the

higher the groups hit the paper, and the more the dot moved

(because the comp wasn't "working" as well as with more powder).

Depends on your individual gun and grip, of course, but

I'm sure someone will come along with exactly what you asked

for - video of flatter.

[kneelingatlas]

Some discussion here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194707

Here's my Bedell super shorty shooting 9mm (9.4gr SP2 under 115gr):

and here's a slow mo video a friend grabbed when I was chronoing 38 super loads with two different barrel/comp setups (Bedell and Benny Hill), unfortunately we didn't note which load it was

Edited November 26, 2014 by kneelingatlas

[kneelingatlas]

I need to do a lot more load development first, but we have plans to do some comparative slow mo videos in front of a checker board.

[bikerburgess]

there are SOOOO many variables (barrel length, comp design, barrel holes, hole size, hole quantity, bullet weight, bullet shape, loaded OAL, powder type, powder charge, gun weight, gun balance, shooters grip, recoil spring weight, main spring weight, slide weight) that I think it would be impossible to make any definitive statements. and that is without even taking shooter preferences into account.

[openclassterror]

there are SOOOO many variables (barrel length, comp design, barrel holes, hole size, hole quantity, bullet weight, bullet shape, loaded OAL, powder type, powder charge, gun weight, gun balance, shooters grip, recoil spring weight, main spring weight, slide weight) that I think it would be impossible to make any definitive statements. and that is without even taking shooter preferences into account.

This ^^^^^^^^^^. The whole "flatness" thing really is a subjective measurement of whether ( with YOUR hold, and YOUR optic, and YOUR brake, and YOUR load) the dot immediately returns to the same spot on the target as before the shot was fired. Weird thing, my major load became a lot "flatter" after I installed a thumb rest on the side of my optic mount. Just changing my hold technique completely changed the way the dot tracks in the window of my C-more.

If you really want to see how your load/ comp is moving your gun, quit taking video of your gun. Mount a green laser on it, and video your TARGET. Play THAT back in slo-mo, and you will be amazed at what is actually happening to your gun when it fires!

[kneelingatlas]

While I'll concede that the flattest gun in your hands may not necessarily lead to the highest hit factors or be the most pleasurable for you to shoot there is definitely an objective, measurable distance the muzzle rises when a shot is fired; this distance vary between shooters for all the reasons you mentioned, but to say muzzle rise is subjective is just not true.

I don't necessarily believe there is a direct correlation between "flatness" and hit factor. I do not play with loads, comps and guns because I think the equipment is what's holding me back from my GM card, I strive for a flat shooting Open gun because it interests me. I'm curious about the effects of different powders, gun weights, so I experiment. It's presumptuous to assume that every shooter has the same goals and desires you do, for some people the science of reloading really does it for them, for others it's the competition and performance, for me, the gun smithing and tinkering take precedence; I really shoot local matches primarily to try out my new toys.

[bikerburgess]

If one wants to compare flatness it needs to be in some sort of a machine rest to take the shooter out of the equation, even the same shooter holding the same gun on the same day will affect how the gun behaves.

the flattest gun I have ever seen is a GLOCK 34 in production shot by a local very large very strong guy, the slide literally doesn't flip at all, way flatter than any of the open guns I have seen, so the shooter plays a big roll in what we will see in videos of different guns shot by different people with different loads

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I shot a 9mm and a 38SC setups today. Both are the same power factor, same powders and bullet weight. Both are STI barrels. The 38SC is a Grandmaster barrel setup and the 9mm is a Tru Bor with my comp cut in it. I can tell you that my comp setup is softer and flatter in the same gun. One gun with 2 barrel setups. I wish I had a camera with me to take some video shots of both setups. If I can feel the difference in my hand and see the dot movement it tells me a lot. Thanks, Eric

[kneelingatlas]

Mike, I agree that a ransom rest would be a useful tool and also that an individuals strength and technique play a role in how flat a gun shoots, but most of all I'm excited to see we seem to agree that "flatness" is a real, measurable thing in objective reality

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'll concede the flattest gun may not lead to the highest hit factors

I agree.

"Flat" seems to be The Holy Grail for many, but not sure

it is terribly important to a B shooter (ME).

The comp works, and the dot stays in the lens - whether

it rises 1" or 2" - not sure it makes a whole lot of difference.

Maybe for an A or M/GM shooter it might - but not for me.

Of course, it would be great (if everything else is equal) if

the dot didn't rise at all - but that's the Holy Grail, I guess.

[Shmella]

I need to do a lot more load development first, but we have plans to do some comparative slow mo videos in front of a checker board.

that's what I figured had to be out there somewhere. I know There are countless variables I guess I'm asking for something that hasn't been done yet on the video comparison. I'm looking for video to pretty much find something to aim for in load development and flatness. I shot my buddies 38 super caspian last weekend and shot mine at the same time and his felt like it didn't move. I haven't really found the right load with my gun as I haven't had it that long and the builder only shot major and I haven't tried major out of it yet so maybe I could do the comparison video ?

[bikerburgess]

I'll concede the flattest gun may not lead to the highest hit factors

I agree.

"Flat" seems to be The Holy Grail for many, but not sure

it is terribly important to a B shooter (ME).

The comp works, and the dot stays in the lens - whether

it rises 1" or 2" - not sure it makes a whole lot of difference.

Maybe for an A or M/GM shooter it might - but not for me.

Of course, it would be great (if everything else is equal) if

the dot didn't rise at all - but that's the Holy Grail, I guess.

I would say you have that backwards, I think the higher level the shooter the LESS important it would be. I have seen video of Max shooting and his muzzle moves up and down quite a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QhmSg3UjEU

I have also seen a statements from a high level shooter (cant remember who) that they preferred some lift to the dot to make it easier to call the shot.

if having a flat gun was super important we would still see 9x25's being run, but we don't :-)

[kneelingatlas]

Dustin,

If you shot a buddy's gun at major and yours with minor ammo, you're comparing apples to oranges. Do you reload?

If you want to shoot Open major, step one is to develop a safe load which makes major in your gun, step two is to experiment with different loads to see what you might like better (or what you might shoot faster if that's you're goal).

[MikeRush]

Different people certainly like different loads, comps, recoil characteristics. I don't know how much a ransom rest would tell you, as it wouldn't really isolate the vertical and horizontal components of the impulse, a load may be flat but come back hard in the hand. There are videos out there, but unfortunately good slo mo isn't cheap. Kneelingatlas needs a better videographer (those videos were shaky!) and 60fps just doesn't quite tell you enough. Much better than the naked eye, but still lacking. Hi speed cameras are coming down in price though, and that may become more and more useful in evaluating loads, spring rates, etc.

The best mod I did to my light limited guns to get them to shoot flatter came from IronMinds and has a spring connecting two handles.

A few years back somebody suggested to me the best way of measuring the performance of a part, change, load, whatever... was a timer. Flat, soft, marshmallow, soaking up recoil like a depends, etc... all nice things, but at the end of the day its points per second and what YOU can shoot the best. I'll wait for kneelingatlas to try all the comps, powders, etc... then when he finds "the one" I will try it and maybe I'll copy it and wear it out.

[flack jacket]

As a long time open shooter, I have been interested in this subject also.. Binary Eng. does pique my interest though.. John, I believe you agree as I will be trying this new comp and see how it works.....

Back to OP topic.. only YOU can make that decision. Because you shoot it, if you want to have a flat gun to show your friends, You can do that too... My friend Justin just made a super flat gun, but, his comp is definitely heavier than most, he has big hands.. etc.

Think of it this way, the Best shooters in the world IE: USPSA = Max. he uses a Trubor T2... go figure...

[kneelingatlas]

Edrick, I have one of Jared's comps just waiting for a project

[Shmella]

my buddies gun that I shot was not at major. mine was not either, and I do reload. I havent shot any uspsa yet only steel challenge matches and falling steel matches so I haven't shot anything at major. I'm an admitted noob, this being my first year shooting, and shot an open gun for the first time about a month ago. that being said, i know there is a lot i can work on before I could say flatter will make me shoot better. just when i shot his compared to mine I was surprised by the difference. having the dot return to the same spot is top priority as far as performance whether it is flat or not but seeing some super flat shooting guns on camera would be pretty cool too Thanks for all of the responses and those videos are right up the alley of what i was looking for.. some flatness

[Shmella]

But to get super picky on what im looking for is video of different loads out of the same gun showing the gun flatten out, especially if it is doing so as the power factor increases. I am probably just getting way too picky but that is what I am looking for lol. Or showing the effect from one powder to another, different bullet weight, different springs, holes in the barrel, without holes, shooting with no hands. hey, i think its a good idea for an experienced shooter/videographer as im sure a lot of other people would enjoying seeing the same thing.

[kneelingatlas]

If you want to see just how flat flat could be, load a 95 or 100gr bullet over a whole case full of a really slow powder like AA#9, N105 or H110. A load like that makes a super flat steel load, but when PF is not an issue I actually prefer a light bullet with just a fleck of Clays in an Open gun with no comp. It's soft and quick!

[R.Elliott]

Well, if you want flattest possible, convert to 9X25 or .357Sig.

[Shmella]

I want to see some flat major loads. On my end budget is an issue so I cant really a bunch of guns for different events. I'm trying to find a good load that I can shoot steel challeng with and falling steel matches and soon some uspsa. If I can get a super flat major load then I would shoot that for everything and get used to that load for all. my take on it is if major can be flat and I can get just as good shooting major than minor, why load differently for other shoots and then have to adjust to the way the gun reacts at the different events? Also if I'm always shooting major then it would be so foreign to me when shooting uspsa

[kneelingatlas]

Major for everything, sounds like a plan What type of gun are you shooting? and what powders do you have available?

[kneelingatlas]

Here's R.Elliot's fire breathing 38 shooting Lil' Gun:

[Shmella]

I have blue dot and hs6. Blue dot won't make major so pretty much all I have is hs6 and availability to anything else is a very unlikely situation. I have titegroup too but ill just save that for limited. I bought a gun in here. 2011 sti frame sti slide 6 1/8" holes and a akai two gill comp