Detail question about dropping a loaded magazine

[robport]

Maybe I shouldn't ask this, but here goes.

During an IDPA match last week, my pistol went to slide lock, I dropped the magazine, and reloaded.

when I got back to start reloading my magazines for the next COF, I found that there was a round left in the magazine I had dropped. Essentially, the pistol went to slide lock with one round left in the magazine. Should I have been penalized for dropping a loaded magazine or is this covered by 3.11.3 for clearing a malfunction (which in my opinion, it was, even though I didn't know about it to be a malfunction or take specific action to clear it at the time)?

I'm just trying to make sure I understand this one. No one noticed or said anything about it. I'm thinking about the future, especially when the RSO or scorekeeper (one particular person comes to mind...lol) finds a mag on the ground with a round in it and doesn't remember me either going to slide lock or me having to clear a malfunction.

Does this apply?

3.11.2. Dropping a loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip during a reload does not incur a penalty as long as the shooter retrieves and properly stows the loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip prior to the firing of the last shot in the string of fire.

I would hope this one does.

3.11.3. Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speed loader/moon clip and /or ammunition that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty if dropped.

Thanks, in advance for any responses

[GOF]

I have seen this issue crop up at a number of matches, both club and sanctioned. The way it has invariably been called is: if a semi-auto pistol goes to slide lock with rounds remaining in the magazine it is a malfunction, because that's not the way they were designed or intended to operate. As long as the pistol was at slide lock, the magazine can hit the ground and be left on the reload under the malfunction rule.

The key is the pistol being at slide lock when the magazine is ejected.

[robport]

That makes perfect sense to me.

Thanks

[Butterpuc]

I have made that particular call many times "as a malfunction". It generally isn't that hard to pick up on as a SO,especially at major matches. You watch so many shooters you know at what point they will be reloading... when they don't you know something went wrong. As long as you are watching the gun as you are supposed to, it is easy to see.

[UCOShooter]

Yea I would call it a malfunction also! The gun showed you a sign for it to be empty and needing a reload, and that is exactly what you did!

If the RO didn't call that it was probably because he was to busy looking at your feet, making sure you were not moving.

[Thomas H]

Yea I would call it a malfunction also! The gun showed you a sign for it to be empty and needing a reload, and that is exactly what you did!

So, to be able to reload whenever you want, make sure your grip pushes up the slide stop at the right time, drop the mag, reload, and move on? It locked back, so therefore it was automatically a malfunction?

[logiztix]

Until mind reading becomes an SO certification requirement, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

I would prefer IDPA get rid of the dropped ammo penalty, but if your slide is locked back when it happens that's a malfunction. It may be a malfunction of your grip technique, but that isn't mine to divine.

[GOF]

Thomas H..... In the split second that it takes a 'malfunction' to occur, can anyone truly determine the cause of the malfunction? If not, the RB specifically states that "in all cases the benefit of the doubt shall go to the shooter".

If a slide locks back with rounds remaining in the magazine the pistol has malfunctioned because they were not designed & intended to do that. If the firearm is not functioning as designed & intended, then by every common definition of the term 'malfunction"- it has malfunctioned. What follows is spelled out clearly (surprisingly) in the Rule Book. You might want to read that book sometime. If you do, you will also see that nowhere in the rule book is the matter of a shooter induced malfunction mentioned. A malf is a malf and the rules are the same for all - clear it and continue.

[Thomas H]

Until mind reading becomes an SO certification requirement, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

We already have that, don't we? After all, the assigning of an FTDR penalty requires the SO to know that the shooter deliberately attempted to circumvent or violate the competition rules to gain a competitive advantage.

How is this different, I wonder?

Thomas H..... In the split second that it takes a 'malfunction' to occur, can anyone truly determine the cause of the malfunction? If not, the RB specifically states that "in all cases the benefit of the doubt shall go to the shooter".

The answer is "sometimes, yes." And sometimes no.

You might want to read that book sometime.

Yeah, you aren't worth replying to anymore. Congrats on your continued politeness and courtesy, though.

[UCOShooter]

Yea I would call it a malfunction also! The gun showed you a sign for it to be empty and needing a reload, and that is exactly what you did!

So, to be able to reload whenever you want, make sure your grip pushes up the slide stop at the right time, drop the mag, reload, and move on? It locked back, so therefore it was automatically a malfunction?

Yea since we all have control over that... But if you can do that, you are probably a jedi ninja

[elguapo]

Yea I would call it a malfunction also! The gun showed you a sign for it to be empty and needing a reload, and that is exactly what you did!

So, to be able to reload whenever you want, make sure your grip pushes up the slide stop at the right time, drop the mag, reload, and move on? It locked back, so therefore it was automatically a malfunction?

This is what makes IDPA so special.........

[Thomas H]

Yea I would call it a malfunction also! The gun showed you a sign for it to be empty and needing a reload, and that is exactly what you did!

So, to be able to reload whenever you want, make sure your grip pushes up the slide stop at the right time, drop the mag, reload, and move on? It locked back, so therefore it was automatically a malfunction?

Yea since we all have control over that... But if you can do that, you are probably a jedi ninja

On the last shot on an array (if you are right-handed) just push your left thumb up?

(I"m left-handed, so it wouldn't be as easy for me )

I'm not big on the "can't drop a mag with rounds in it" in the first place, so this is rather an academic discussion, really---but that being said, it doesn't seem a malfunction to me when the gun does exactly what it is supposed to---slide stop was engaged, so the slide locked back. Yay, the gun works correctly!

If a person has only shot 6 rounds on an array and the slide locks back, it seems to me that it is on the shooter to figure out the problem and fix it appropriately.

[GOF]

According the Rule Book the appropriate response by the shooter is to correct the malfunction by removing any magazines and ammunition that MAY be involved with the malf... replace it with new... and continue through the COF. It's right there in the Rule Book. What part of "Rule Book" are we not comprehending here?

[Rob Tompkins]

Until mind reading becomes an SO certification requirement, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

I would prefer IDPA get rid of the dropped ammo penalty, but if your slide is locked back when it happens that's a malfunction. It may be a malfunction of your grip technique, but that isn't mine to divine.

+1 - Agreed.

[Rob Tompkins]

Yea I would call it a malfunction also! The gun showed you a sign for it to be empty and needing a reload, and that is exactly what you did!

So, to be able to reload whenever you want, make sure your grip pushes up the slide stop at the right time, drop the mag, reload, and move on? It locked back, so therefore it was automatically a malfunction?

Yea since we all have control over that... But if you can do that, you are probably a jedi ninja

On the last shot on an array (if you are right-handed) just push your left thumb up?

(I"m left-handed, so it wouldn't be as easy for me )

I'm not big on the "can't drop a mag with rounds in it" in the first place, so this is rather an academic discussion, really---but that being said, it doesn't seem a malfunction to me when the gun does exactly what it is supposed to---slide stop was engaged, so the slide locked back. Yay, the gun works correctly!

If a person has only shot 6 rounds on an array and the slide locks back, it seems to me that it is on the shooter to figure out the problem and fix it appropriately.

If someone is so caught up in finding a better slide lock reload point they want to intentionally induce a premature slide lock - let them for I doubt it will mean much in the end even if done well and the potential for getting it wrong is pretty good. While its "cheating" I can't tell for sure and if I could it would be an FTDR or DQ.

[Thomas H]

According the Rule Book the appropriate response by the shooter is to correct the malfunction by removing any magazines and ammunition that MAY be involved with the malf... replace it with new... and continue through the COF.

Mind pointing out where in the rulebook it says this?

It's right there in the Rule Book. What part of "Rule Book" are we not comprehending here?

So you can point out the page where it says the above? Do tell.

I'd like to see where it says the shooter should do that.

[GOF]

Thomas H... you really are Rule Book ignorant, aren't you! Try 3.11.3.

Do tell!

[Thomas H]

Thomas H... you really are Rule Book ignorant, aren't you! Try 3.11.3.

Do tell!

I'm aware of what 3.11.3 says. Apparently you aren't, so I'll quote it:

3.11.3. Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speed loader/moon clip and /or ammunition that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty if dropped.

No where does it say there anything even remotely like

According the Rule Book the appropriate response by the shooter is to correct the malfunction by removing any magazines and ammunition that MAY be involved with the malf... replace it with new... and continue through the COF.

Matter of fact, it doesn't require or suggest anything in terms of what the shooter should do. It does, however, make an instruction to the SO regarding penalties. However, at no time does it tell the shooter what the appropriate response is, or should be.

As I had thought, your commentary about "read the rule book!" (and your continued suggestion that I don't understand it) seems to be based on the concept that what you read into the rulebook is an actual rule, as opposed to what the rule book actually SAYS is the rule.

Or is there something else in the rulebook that instructs the shooter on what they should do in the case of a malfunction?

If not, I suggest you stop telling me to the read the rulebook, and stop making up things that aren't in the rulebook.

[GOF]

Thomas H... if that is how you "interpret the Rule Book regarding malfunction clearance" you have a severe reading comprehension problem. The OP (remember that before you started trolling?) asked the specific question addressed and covered by 3.11.3. Asked & answered there.

As to what a shooter should do in the event of a malfunction... the title of 3.11.3 is "Malfunction Clearing Exemption". If malfunctions were not intended to be cleared to allow the shooter to continue through the COF... why would a specific Rule be created to tell them what some of the actions in clearing that malfunction are exempted from penalties (and therefore allowable in clearing a malfunction? Are you actually that dense? Or is your argumentative trolling just a form of entertainment for you?

[Thomas H]

Thomas H... if that is how you "interpret the Rule Book regarding malfunction clearance" you have a severe reading comprehension problem. The OP (remember that before you started trolling?) asked the specific question addressed and covered by 3.11.3. Asked & answered there.

As to what a shooter should do in the event of a malfunction... the title of 3.11.3 is "Malfunction Clearing Exemption". If malfunctions were not intended to be cleared to allow the shooter to continue through the COF... why would a specific Rule be created to tell them what some of the actions in clearing that malfunction are exempted from penalties (and therefore allowable in clearing a malfunction? Are you actually that dense? Or is your argumentative trolling just a form of entertainment for you?

Your statement was that a rule gave direction to shooters as to what they should do in the case of a malfunction. And upon request, you pointed to a rule that does not give direction to shooters (regarding what they should do) but instead gives direction to SOs.

Even better, it is certainly not true that it says anywhere that all mags and ammo should be removed "and replaced with new" anywhere in the rulebook.

So no---I'm not trolling. I am merely pointing out that your statements are incorrect, your contentions read things into the rulebook that don't exist, and quelle surprise, any arguments based on such non-existent rules therefore don't have any basis.

I'm curious, though. Are statements like:

"What follows is spelled out clearly (surprisingly) in the Rule Book. You might want to read that book sometime."

and

"What part of "Rule Book" are we not comprehending here?"

and

"Are you actually that dense?"

and

"you really are Rule Book ignorant, aren't you!"

...a normal method of polite discourse here in the Rules forum? (Those are all from this particular thread. GOF has been similarly expressive on others.) If so, I'll have to change my interaction mode to something more aggressively rude.

Getting back to the original point (and talking to other people who are not GOF, as GOF seems to have run out of common courtesy): So the common reaction to guns going into slidelock at incorrect times, no matter the reason, are treated as malfunctions, and no penalties are to be assessed if loaded magazines stay on the ground. Useful to know, if that happens in a match.

I know plenty of people who (when introduced to a new gun) have grip troubles that interact with the slide stop under stress, occasionally causing premature lockback. It just seems odd to me that we would consider shooter-induced issues as malfunctions, when the operator made the gun do exactly what it was supposed to do.

I guess the part that probably makes me think this is that even though it is considered a malfunction (and covered under malfunction rules), the SHOOTER didn't consider it a malfunction, nor try to clear the gun. Instead, they simply reloaded and moved on, meaning they didn't notice the malfunction, and misunderstood the gun issue. They got lucky in that it was considered a malfunction by the SO---but they didn't even notice a malfunction. It wouldn't have occurred to me that it would be handled that way.

So that's useful to know!

[ac4wordplay]

Malfunction?

Interesting.

If the shooter inadvertently applies pressure to the slide-lock lever, and it operates as designed and locks the slide back... this is a malfunction? Really? Consider this:

If the shooter inadvertently applies pressure to the trigger, and it operates as designed and the gun fires... is this a malfunction?

[GOF]

Thomas H...Glad to know that you are still a "Gold Card Member" of my fan club. I thought I'd lost a valued member when you announced in a previous post that you would no longer respond to anything I said. Glad to know I was wrong, and your still pulling my quotes for trolling bait.

Also glad to know that you have mastered the Jedi Knight mind-reading trick. That's not easy, but I'm sure it allows you to look beyond the actual things the gun is doing and into the mind of the shooter, and make your Rule Book opinions based upon that. It's a rare (almost non-existent) skill in fact, I've met virtually no experienced SOs , since I was originally certified in 2007, that were as confident of their ability to do that as you seem to be.

Congratulations! You have become the Jedi Knight of SOs

I'm sure IDPA will be much better for it.

Edited to lead with Thomas H in first sentence, since another post came in while I was preparing mine

Edited November 17, 2014 by GOF

[logiztix]

The IDPA rule book also doesn't instruct shooters on proper sight alignment, trigger control, breath control or any of the fundamentals of marksmanship either. It instructs SOs on how to score shooters that have none of that mastered and have hits somewhere other than the down zero.

In the same respect, the SO instructions for the malfunction clearance exception properly acknowledge that most shooters with proper training don't stand around and analyze WHY their slide locked back under pressure, they dump the mag and reload. If there are rounds left in the magazine, that is a malfunction of the firearm/ammo/shooter system as are ALL malfunctions. Those malfunctions may be anything from the shooter's grip technique, to the shooter being incapable of properly cleaning their gun, to the shooter being ignorant of proper reassembly after cleaning, to the shooter's incompetent reloading practices at the bench. A number of these malfunction causes could possibly be pinned on someone other than the shooter. Unfortunately, they show up in the match where the timer is running and the shooter is the one who has to fix it. The SO is not charged with deciding at what point leading up to the malfunction the responsibility of the shooter begins and the equipment ends. There also isn't time for a detailed fault analysis to be conducted. Benefit to the shooter. Is that so difficult?

In all cases of a slide locking back, the malfunction is that the gun is empty earlier than it should be. So, you get rid of the magazine that may have caused the malfunction and change to one with a better chance of working. IDPA has merely instructed their SOs not to penalize proper training in this rare instance.

[Thomas H]

I am amazed to see:

Those malfunctions may be anything from the shooter's grip technique, to the shooter being incapable of properly cleaning their gun, to the shooter being ignorant of proper reassembly after cleaning, to the shooter's incompetent reloading practices at the bench.

...linked to this:

IDPA has merely instructed their SOs not to penalize proper training in this rare instance.

...in the same explanation.

As I said above---this type of ruling wouldn't have occurred to me, so I'm glad to know it.

[Thomas H]

This is copied purely for Moderator reference, so that if GOF edits it, it'll still be available.

Thomas H...Glad to know that you are still a "Gold Card Member" of my fan club. I thought I'd lost a valued member when you announced in a previous post that you would no longer respond to anything I said. Glad to know I was wrong, and your still pulling my quotes for trolling bait.

Also glad to know that you have mastered the Jedi Knight mind-reading trick. That's not easy, but I'm sure it allows you to look beyond the actual things the gun is doing and into the mind of the shooter, and make your Rule Book opinions based upon that. It's a rare (almost non-existent) skill in fact, I've met virtually no experienced SOs , since I was originally certified in 2007, that were as confident of their ability to do that as you seem to be.

Congratulations! You have become the Jedi Knight of SOs

I'm sure IDPA will be much better for it.

Edited to lead with Thomas H in first sentence, since another post came in while I was preparing mine

I'd respond, but quite frankly, last I knew there were supposed to be some behavioral expectations here.