aandabooks Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Been playing with the idea of getting a backup gun. I shoot Production with a XDM9 5.25" and don't want to pony up for another with all the upgrades. Thinking about something else as a backup gun incase my main gun goes down. Is this legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xd1977 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 According to USPSA Rules, you must bring it to the attention of the Range Master first. Should be approved then, as long as the gun meets the requirements of the relevant division and does not give you a competitive advantage: 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: 5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division. 5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage. 5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of whether or not the original handgun was previously tested. 5.1.7.4 If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I would think your most economical choice would be another XDm (or XD, if mags are the same) so that you can use the same holster, mags, etc. You can leave it stock as a backup, or eventually upgrade it to match your primary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 How can a gun that meets the requirements of a division give the competitor an advantage. Is USPSA saying that 'yes both X & Y guns are legal in that division, but Y is a better gun, so no you can't use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Y will also be a more competitive gun if the first is being replaced due to malfunctions ie unserviceable. If I go from a whizbang 2011 open gun that must be racked every shot to a Glock that runs I would get more competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xd1977 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 How can a gun that meets the requirements of a division give the competitor an advantage. Is USPSA saying that 'yes both X & Y guns are legal in that division, but Y is a better gun, so no you can't use it? This is how it can give the competitor an advantage: Let's say you are shooting production with a stock G17 4.5in. Your gun goes down and you have a backup (XDm-9 4.5, G17, M&P9...whatever) with a 2.5 lb trigger, heavier guide rod, fibers, stippling and lots of internal work that would still be deemed production legal. 90% of the time, the RM is going to let you switch...BUT, he does not have to in this instance because of the upgrades of your BU gun vs. the stock plain version of the original pistol you began with. So, no...Y is not considered a "better gun", but "a gun that gives a competitive advantage" because of the mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 How can a gun that meets the requirements of a division give the competitor an advantage. Is USPSA saying that 'yes both X & Y guns are legal in that division, but Y is a better gun, so no you can't use it? This is how it can give the competitor an advantage: Let's say you are shooting production with a stock G17 4.5in. Your gun goes down and you have a backup (XDm-9 4.5, G17, M&P9...whatever) with a 2.5 lb trigger, heavier guide rod, fibers, stippling and lots of internal work that would still be deemed production legal. 90% of the time, the RM is going to let you switch...BUT, he does not have to in this instance because of the upgrades of your BU gun vs. the stock plain version of the original pistol you began with. So, no...Y is not considered a "better gun", but "a gun that gives a competitive advantage" because of the mods. But anyone else using a similar gun in the same competition would also have a competitive advantage, yet that's OK? Divisions aren't further broken down by type or number of mods to the gun. Either the gun is legal for the division, or it isn't. Using your logic, I could start a match with my bone stock Glock 17 but in the event of a breakdown, would not be able to finish with my CZ SP01 Custom. But if I started with the CZ you would allow me to finish with the Glock? You don't see a problem with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 My understanding of the "competitive advantage" bit was to prevent me from say, shooting a 5" on the hoser stage, and then having it "break" and switching to a 6" for the stage with 30 yard partials, and then switching back for another close stage, etc. I wouldn't do it, but they don't make someone use the same club across the entire course for golf... if someone thought that was an advantage I wouldn't have an issue with them doing that, but I can see how that could be construed as competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 My understanding of the "competitive advantage" bit was to prevent me from say, shooting a 5" on the hoser stage, and then having it "break" and switching to a 6" for the stage with 30 yard partials, and then switching back for another close stage, etc. That was my understanding as well. It's primarily to keep people from switching to a purpose-built gun for a specific stage. Most of the time, the RM will approve whatever your backup is as long as it's legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 My understanding of the "competitive advantage" bit was to prevent me from say, shooting a 5" on the hoser stage, and then having it "break" and switching to a 6" for the stage with 30 yard partials, and then switching back for another close stage, advantage. Same theory with heavy versus light, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I love your thinking Mike! A true gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 My understanding of the "competitive advantage" bit was to prevent me from say, shooting a 5" on the hoser stage, and then having it "break" and switching to a 6" for the stage with 30 yard partials, and then switching back for another close stage, etc. I wouldn't do it, but they don't make someone use the same club across the entire course for golf... if someone thought that was an advantage I wouldn't have an issue with them doing that, but I can see how that could be construed as competitive advantage. If your gun 'broke' how would you be switching back to it? How would you explain that to the RM? How would you not get DQ'd under 10.6.1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaraW Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) My understanding of the "competitive advantage" bit was to prevent me from say, shooting a 5" on the hoser stage, and then having it "break" and switching to a 6" for the stage with 30 yard partials, and then switching back for another close stage, etc. I wouldn't do it, but they don't make someone use the same club across the entire course for golf... if someone thought that was an advantage I wouldn't have an issue with them doing that, but I can see how that could be construed as competitive advantage. If your gun 'broke' how would you be switching back to it? How would you explain that to the RM? How would you not get DQ'd under 10.6.1?"My buddy just found that spare part I needed, can I switch back now?" Probably like that, except the RM doesn't have to allow it. Edited October 10, 2014 by MaraW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 How can a gun that meets the requirements of a division give the competitor an advantage. Is USPSA saying that 'yes both X & Y guns are legal in that division, but Y is a better gun, so no you can't use it? This is how it can give the competitor an advantage: Let's say you are shooting production with a stock G17 4.5in. Your gun goes down and you have a backup (XDm-9 4.5, G17, M&P9...whatever) with a 2.5 lb trigger, heavier guide rod, fibers, stippling and lots of internal work that would still be deemed production legal. 90% of the time, the RM is going to let you switch...BUT, he does not have to in this instance because of the upgrades of your BU gun vs. the stock plain version of the original pistol you began with. So, no...Y is not considered a "better gun", but "a gun that gives a competitive advantage" because of the mods. But anyone else using a similar gun in the same competition would also have a competitive advantage, yet that's OK? Divisions aren't further broken down by type or number of mods to the gun. Either the gun is legal for the division, or it isn't. Using your logic, I could start a match with my bone stock Glock 17 but in the event of a breakdown, would not be able to finish with my CZ SP01 Custom. But if I started with the CZ you would allow me to finish with the Glock? You don't see a problem with that? This might make it easier to think about. The rule isn't about what anybody else is using in the match, it's about what you're using. If you start with a less advantageous gun (e.g., stock Glock/XD/M&P) and then switch to a CZ 75 Target Shadow, that's going to produce a competitive advantage *for you*. I would think the shooter would have wanted to start with the better gun, so why didn't he? The shooter chooses the equipment, and it's not considered fair to switch to better stuff later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 How can a gun that meets the requirements of a division give the competitor an advantage. Is USPSA saying that 'yes both X & Y guns are legal in that division, but Y is a better gun, so no you can't use it? This is how it can give the competitor an advantage: Let's say you are shooting production with a stock G17 4.5in. Your gun goes down and you have a backup (XDm-9 4.5, G17, M&P9...whatever) with a 2.5 lb trigger, heavier guide rod, fibers, stippling and lots of internal work that would still be deemed production legal. 90% of the time, the RM is going to let you switch...BUT, he does not have to in this instance because of the upgrades of your BU gun vs. the stock plain version of the original pistol you began with. So, no...Y is not considered a "better gun", but "a gun that gives a competitive advantage" because of the mods. That's not how it works in practice though. An RM will approve a switch to another division legal handgun in most instances involving a broken primary. The language exists to keep the competitor from switching back -- this isn't golf where you shoot the light blaster on field courses; then something breaks just before standards and you request a switch to the heavy blaster, but then that night at the hotel you "fix" your light primary gun and petition to switch back the next morning for the remainder of the field courses...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Which is exactly why I always bring three guns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 How can a gun that meets the requirements of a division give the competitor an advantage. Is USPSA saying that 'yes both X & Y guns are legal in that division, but Y is a better gun, so no you can't use it? This is how it can give the competitor an advantage: Let's say you are shooting production with a stock G17 4.5in. Your gun goes down and you have a backup (XDm-9 4.5, G17, M&P9...whatever) with a 2.5 lb trigger, heavier guide rod, fibers, stippling and lots of internal work that would still be deemed production legal. 90% of the time, the RM is going to let you switch...BUT, he does not have to in this instance because of the upgrades of your BU gun vs. the stock plain version of the original pistol you began with. So, no...Y is not considered a "better gun", but "a gun that gives a competitive advantage" because of the mods. But anyone else using a similar gun in the same competition would also have a competitive advantage, yet that's OK? Divisions aren't further broken down by type or number of mods to the gun. Either the gun is legal for the division, or it isn't. Using your logic, I could start a match with my bone stock Glock 17 but in the event of a breakdown, would not be able to finish with my CZ SP01 Custom. But if I started with the CZ you would allow me to finish with the Glock? You don't see a problem with that? This might make it easier to think about. The rule isn't about what anybody else is using in the match, it's about what you're using. If you start with a less advantageous gun (e.g., stock Glock/XD/M&P) and then switch to a CZ 75 Target Shadow, that's going to produce a competitive advantage *for you*. I would think the shooter would have wanted to start with the better gun, so why didn't he? The shooter chooses the equipment, and it's not considered fair to switch to better stuff later. So it's the gun, not the shooter that makes a difference in competition? Who's definition of 'better stuff' are we using? A lot of Glock fans would disagree with my example. Broken gun - check Replacement gun on approved list - check Load and make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xd1977 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 How can a gun that meets the requirements of a division give the competitor an advantage. Is USPSA saying that 'yes both X & Y guns are legal in that division, but Y is a better gun, so no you can't use it? This is how it can give the competitor an advantage: Let's say you are shooting production with a stock G17 4.5in. Your gun goes down and you have a backup (XDm-9 4.5, G17, M&P9...whatever) with a 2.5 lb trigger, heavier guide rod, fibers, stippling and lots of internal work that would still be deemed production legal. 90% of the time, the RM is going to let you switch...BUT, he does not have to in this instance because of the upgrades of your BU gun vs. the stock plain version of the original pistol you began with. So, no...Y is not considered a "better gun", but "a gun that gives a competitive advantage" because of the mods. But anyone else using a similar gun in the same competition would also have a competitive advantage, yet that's OK? Divisions aren't further broken down by type or number of mods to the gun. Either the gun is legal for the division, or it isn't. Using your logic, I could start a match with my bone stock Glock 17 but in the event of a breakdown, would not be able to finish with my CZ SP01 Custom. But if I started with the CZ you would allow me to finish with the Glock? You don't see a problem with that? It's not my logic, it's the USPSA rule book and the decision of the RM. In a case where I was the RM and your primary you began the match with took a legitimate nose dive and broke, then I would have no problem letting you or anyone else switch to your BUG as long as it's production legal..no matter what mods you have or how long the barrel is. I do see your point, but most likley the RM is going to let you switch regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xd1977 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Broken gun - check Replacement gun on approved list - check Load and make ready. Agreed! Edited October 12, 2014 by xd1977 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Picked up another XDM9 5.25" today for use as a backup gun. Couldn't resist at the price I got it for. Now to decide what to do with it to get it competition ready. I have a PRP trigger in my main gun. Thinking about putting a Canyon Creek in this one. They are only about 30 miles from where I live. Might be able to save money on shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpowe Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 My buddy Kenny told me about a case at the Nationals in early 90's, One of the big dogs broke the scope on his open gun. Wanted to switch to his limited gun for the rest of the match. The MD looked at the remaining stages and decided since they were primarily up close and personal, the limited gun would be a competative advantage and the swap was not allowed. Don't remember how his problem was resolved but obviously, just because a gun fits the division (ALL guns are open!), the MD may not let you switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 My buddy Kenny told me about a case at the Nationals in early 90's, One of the big dogs broke the scope on his open gun. Wanted to switch to his limited gun for the rest of the match. The MD looked at the remaining stages and decided since they were primarily up close and personal, the limited gun would be a competative advantage and the swap was not allowed. Don't remember how his problem was resolved but obviously, just because a gun fits the division (ALL guns are open!), the MD may not let you switch. That was then, this is now...... For the most part we're kinder and gentler now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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